Re: THE BAB taught reincarnation under the term "return"....


Steve,

The Bab wrote that Mulla Husein, the first Babi, was the "return" of
Muhammad. Baha'is would interpret that "metaphorically". But, the
metaphor does NOT work. In what way was Mulla Husein Muhammad returned
"metaphorically"? Did he receive divine Revelation like Muhammad? No.
Did he bring a new law like Muhammad? No? If anyone was Muhammad
returned "metaphorically" then it was The Bab! Yet, The Bab said He
was the return of the Imam Mahdi. What did the original Imam Mahdi do?
He did nothing. He was a kid. He fell down a well and died. So, the
"metaphor only" does not work. Simply does not.

Also, in the writings of Shaykh Ahmad Al-Ahsai, he writes that the
"Immortal 14" (the Fourteen Manifestations of God which included one
woman) "return" in each Dispensation. In other words, Moses, Aaron,
Miriam and 10 others "returned" as Jesus, Mary, and His 12 Apotles,
and they "returned" as Muhammad, Fatimah and the 12 Imams, and "they"
will return again in the Resurrection; which is the "new" Dispensation
which shall be openned by the RETURN of the Imam Mahdi.






On Aug 17, 6:25 pm, steveblombe...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Aug 18, 7:36 am, Darrick <darrick_even...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:





Steve,

I'd have to disagree with you.

On Aug 17, 5:09 am, steveblombe...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

On Aug 17, 1:43 pm, Darrick <darrick_even...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

The reason why you'll NEVER see the Bayan and other books by The Bab
published by any Baha'i publishing house is because The Bab clearly
taught reincarnation under the term "RETURN". He taught that Mulla
Husein, the first Babi, was the "return" of the Prophet Muhammad. He
taught He Himself was the "return" of the Imam Mahdi, who died as a
young boy when he fell down a well outside the city of
Qom, Iran, in 260 A.D.

Baha'u'llah clearly taught He was the "return" of the Imam Husayn, one
of the two martyred sons of Ali, the first Imam.

You will NEVER see the writings of QUDDUS translated and being
published by the Baha'i World Faith, because they clearly teach
reincarnation, although Shoghi Effendi wrote that the Writings of
Quddus should be considered "Holy Scripture" to Baha'is.

Reincarnation, under the term "return" is taught by several Baha'i
groups in Iran, of which there are five not counting the Baha'is who
belong to the Baha'i World Faith headquartered in Haifa, Israel.

The "Manifestations of God" according to Shaykh Ahmad Ahsai refers to
Muhammad, Fatimah, and the 12 Imams (14 in all...13 male and one
female). He taught that the "immortal 14" in Jesus' day was Jesus, His
12 apostles, and Mary. Tahirih is the "return" of Mary/Fatimah.

The Baha'i World Faith will NEVER publish these books, and refuse to
let Baha'i scholars have photocopies of them and translate them
themsevles, because they do not want Baha'is to know the truth.

The TRUTH is that the Baha'i World Faith, headquartered in Haifa,
Israel, is under the control of a very liberal segment of the Afnan
family, who became extremely wealthy in the opium trade in the late
1800s and early 1900s until the trade was stopped by the British and
French. They decide who becomes Members of the House. They decide what
is published and not published in the Faith.

The Unitarian Baha'is, under the leadership of Muhammad Ali, the
younger brother of 'Abdu'l-Baha, always interpreted "return" as
reincarnation.

This is a good post by Darrick.Simply because he brings up a topic
that is worth discussing.

The concept of the return can be compared with 'reincarnation' but is
not the same thing. If reincarnation as assumed by the folk means that
the soul of an individual navigates into the body of another in a
sense that the person could potentially remember his past lives, then
that is not exactly what 'return' means.
Based on Bayan, 'return' is the assumption of one's very purpose,
mission, fate, and his/her impact on the course of history by another
person.
Unity I of Chapter 1
.. The manifestation of God in the Point of Bayan. ..
Unity 15 of Chapter 1
His Holiness the Proof (one of the titles of the 12th Imam) appeared
with verses and signs by the manifestation of the Point of Bayan which
in truth is the manifestation of the Point of Furqan (Quran).
Although the Point of Bayan was mentioned at first (i.e. in Unity 1)
and the Point of Furqan in the second and the appearance of His
Holiness (i.e. the 12th Imam) in the 15th Unity, the hidden (secret)
is that the Point in the station of purity which is the mere
manifestation of God appears by the name of Divinity (uluwhiyat) (and
hence) was mentioned at first and in the station of the Determination
which is the Primal Volition was mentioned in the second place; and in
the station of Qaem-hood (note that Qaem was also the title of the
12th Imam) over all souls... He is the First and He is the Last ..

In short the station of the Primal Point as the manifestation of God
has no precedence. This is the first time that God manifests Himself
in a person.
Bab-ul-Bab (Mulla Husayn) was the return of His Holiness Muhammad.
The Primal Point also assumed the station of Qaem-hood (the one who
shall rise) which is a title of the 12th Imam. Note that according to
the book of 5 Modes, the Primal Point considers the first 4 years of
His mission as 'Bab-hood', the next 2 years as Qaem-hood and the last
years in the station of Uluwhiyyat (Divinity).
The Imamat (Imam-hood) ended with the 12th Imam. The manifestation of
the Primal Point re-starts the cycle from where it ended: He is the
Last and He is the First.

Now, as to why Bahaism runs away from this topic is fairly clear. The
concept of 'return' as it happened in Bayan and in the Letters of the
Living to be repeated in the next manifestation did not simply
eventuate in Bahaism. In fact it got very ugly and embarrassing.
In Bayan the first believer was Mulla Husayn, he assumed the station
of Prophet Muhammad. Bayan says the Point will similarly be the first
Believer in the next manifestation.
In Bahaism, Mirza Aqa Jan of Kashan beaten up by Abbas and his muscle-
full disciples was the first believer in Husayn-Ali. It would be an
insult to the Primal Point to contemplate Mirza Aqa Jan as anything
but a crook. Certainly Bahais do not consider any elevated station for
him.
On the other hand if Husayn-Ali were who he said he was he would
appear in the next cycle as the first believer again. But he says the
next manifestation will speak in his name. He likes to be number 1 for
ever.
He was after immortality! All Pharaohs want that.

Simialrly, there was no Letters as such. We don't have any return of
the Letters of the Living. At least one of them was even murdered by
Bahais!
So, as far as the concept of return is concerned Bahaism would rather
leave the topic off the table.
Moreover, neither Husayn-Ali nor his son(s) have said anything about
any of them returning.
Thank God for that.

As to Husayn-Ali assuming the return of Imam Husayn, based on chapter
6 of Unity 1, Imam Husayn-has appeared as one of the Letters of the
Living created by the Point.
Seehttp://www.bayanic.com/notes/return/return.htmlonthesubject of
Husayn-Ali claiming to be return of Imam Husayn.

Steve- Hide quoted text -

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- Show quoted text -

Is that all!
Can you be just a little bit specific so that we can have a meaningful
debate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


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