Re: The Internet ate my homework! The Nineteen Years (Part One)

On May 29, 12:34 pm, steveblombe...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On May 29, 12:52 am, PaulHammond <pahamm...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:





On 26 May, 09:58, steveblombe...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

On May 26, 3:09 am, PaulHammond <pahamm...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On 21 May, 10:05, steveblombe...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

On May 20, 9:27 pm, PaulHammond <pahamm...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:> On 19 May, 01:30, steveblomber...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

I refrained for a few days out of respect for the holy Bayani days
this week.

Wow! What respect!

Shame your Baha'i Holy Days didn't make YOU more Holy.

To me, there are no such thing as "Baha'i Holy Days ". They would be
yours.

Seeing as how I've told you a million times not to exaggerate or
make up stories about me, we'll call that two deliberate
mistakes calculated to annoy the other person and call that
quits, shall we?

You are deliberately over-gerneralizing. I deny I exaggerated or made
up stories about you.
You are telling me you are not a Bahai and my position has been that
to me, the views you put forward as yours put you in the Bahai
category no less than many Bahais who would say they are.

No Steve. I am deliberately exaggerating - it's a very old joke:

"I've told you a million times not to exaggerate".

However, when it comes to you calling me a Baha'i in the
face of my own denials - well, I call simple hypocrisy on that.

You've gone on record, recently, as telling an sci poster that
if Nima *tells* everyone that he is not a Hezbollahi sympathiser
that we should take his word for it.

I am merely asking that you should apply the same standard to
myself.

I think I have answered this a million times by now.



I'm not a Baha'i because I don't believe in God, capiche?

You are not a Bahai in a sense that Bahais or yourself judge yourself.
Everything else that you do on the ground that is:
-picking up the fight for the Bahai claims,
-your anymosity towards things that are considered Bayani,
-acceptance of the Bahai version of accounts no question asked,
-Your unbalanced view of the 'Bahai teachings'
-Your vigour and persistence on supporting the Bahai claims no matter
what
..
makes you to me much more a Bahai than not a Bahai.
As your favorite star Client Eastwood say: There may be a thousand
reason why I should not call you a Bahai, but right now, I can't think
of one.

This was a little bit exaggerated but I think you understand.



As far as the "Baha'i Holy Days" thing - I admit to leaving that
in there rather than correcting "Baha'i" to "Babi" or "Bayani"
because I knew it would annoy you.

As I said you do seek personal gratification in attacking Bayani
things and that is one of the things I listed above.
The thing is that like all Bahais, when you are arguing with me, you
can't expect me to believe that what you are talking about is not
based on any reason but is designed to just 'annoy me'.



Then I said shall we leave it there and call it quits.

Quit what!
I am not into pressing the same button twice. I react!



Apparently you don't want to because you're still whining about it...

You are just trying to 'annoy me'. Aren't you?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The tablet addressed by the Primal Point to HWGSMM has several point:
1) The title of the tablet literally says: Inside the school house of
HWGSMM, (please) illuminate
2) The tablet says that HEWGSMM would wait for 19 years in the next
resurrection before He dismissed People of Bayan
3) That HWGSMM could do the the above even as he would be 'sucking
milk from the breast of her mother'.

Most of the discussion revolved around the title. Bayanis arguing that
the title does refer to a physical school as opposed to Bahais
claiming that it is not a physical school and what is meant by it is
the divine knowledge and as such the manifestations of God are privy
to the tablet. It appears that Bahais claim that the reference to the
School-house could not be a reference to a physical place because the
school is attributed to HWGSMM and because HWGSMM is educated by God
including the contents of the tablet therefore a physical school
would not be appropriate to HWGSMM.

Husayn-Ali dedicated a great deal to the implication of the tablet in
his tiny "Holiest Book" and scoughs at Bayanis for suggesting that
HWGSMM is an ignorant child and that he entered the 'school of god'
before the creation of all.

Paul Hammond came up with some additional arguments:
- The length of the tablet would not make it appropriate for a
physical school.
- School children would rather and should be concerned with much less
complicated subjects than this tablet
- The tablet is to do with the Bayanic metaphor that compares students
to mankind and teachers to the manifestations
- The tablet praises the authority of HWGSMM

Along the way:
- Concerning 1. above, precedence for schools and buildings animated,
and adorned by long verses from Quran seemed to satisfy Paul
- He also believed that Husayn-Ali being 2 years older than the Primal
Point would have gone to school,
- He also believed that Husayn-Ali would have read Bayan as a Babi.
- He has also conceded that there may exist a physical school for
HWGSMM

Let's now list the points that the two camps are in agreement:
- Manifestations of God are privy to the divine knowledge because they
are inspired by what God reveals to them.
- The tablet in question praises the authority of HWGSMM
- Students and teachers are compared to mankind and manifestations.

That children at school would rather enjoy life rather than studying a
tablet does not really deserve a response. It is highly subjective and
a personal expectation.

That the manifestations of God would be privy to the divine knowledge
is fine. In fact in the tablet where it addresses HWGSMM, it says
"From God ...... to God ...".
Therefore the tablet was not just for the benefit of HWGSMM. It
contains important information concerning the period of the
resurrection of Bayan.
Furthermore, what would be the point of God sending a message to
himself only?

So, when Mirza Husayn-Ali complains Bayanis suggest HEGSMM is an
'ignorant young land', he is suggesting that HWGSMM did not need to go
to school to learn about that tablet and he has got it from elsewhere.
By taking this position he is hopping that the whole premise for a
physical 'school-house of HWGSMM0 to disappear, but it does NOT.

As I said earlier, Bayanis would benefit in several ways:
- Their schools are adorned with a verse that the Primal Point has
nominated.
- Future Bayani generations would be educated to the contents of the
tab
- Educates Bayanis that they have only 19 years before they are
considered out of faith.

Another key factor is that regardless of HWGSMM having divine
knowledge, it is still a very strong possibility that He would be sent
to school, and Bayan testifies to this fact. And unlike what Husayn-
Ali thinks would be an insult to think of a physical school for
HWGSMM, it is not at all; because it in no way implies that HWGSMM
will not have divine knowledge.

The miracle in the manifestation of Bayan was His Holiness's divine
knowledge, yet he was put to school by His uncle. So if Husayn-Ali
finds it insulting to suggest that HWGSMM would go to school, he
cannot be believed. Although he vehemently denies to have been to
school, he must have had schooling inside his family home or outside.
And, as I said before Mirza Husayn-Ali does not claim to have been
illiterate before he got
his 'first intimations' in the black-hole (Siah-Chal) of Tehran.

Therefore I stress gain that for HEGSMM to have divine knowledge and
to be put to a physical school in his childhood is perfectly fine.

I also mentioned several reasons as to support my argument as to why I
think the title was a reference to a physical school.
There are only about 4 or five words in the title and almost every
single word of it is a testimony to the physicality of the school:
- The reference is to 'maktab-khaneh' or school-house. The word maktab
or school also means the place where schooling occurs. The word
maktab in the literature is also used to refer to a certain ideology
or thought, for example school of communism means the ideology of
communism.
What we see in the tablet is the affixation of the 'school' with
'house'. The word maktab-khaneh is never used in the Persian
literature to refer to an ideology or thought. It explicitly refers to
a physical place.
- The word 'munavar' (illuminate) has its root in 'nur' (light). This
verb is commonly used by the Iranians to honor their guests coming to
their house.
It simply means that the presence of the person in their house has
blessed thier home with the sanctity that is in that person. This is
of course an exaggeration but that is how it works amongst Iranians.
Therefore the tablet in question has illuminated or blessed the
'maktab-khaneh' with something it did not have. You cannot say that
the 'schol of God' whatever that may be lacked sanctity before it was
illuminated with this one tablet.
- The word 'farmayand' is in the third person plural form of the word
'please'. It is a polite way of ordering someone to do something.
This verb must have a subject and an object. The subject is the People
of Bayan, the object is the tablet. This will not work with the
'school of god'.
- The school is attributed to HWGSMM. That is 'the school-house OF
HEGSMM'. The 'school of god' whatever that is, is not a property of
HWGSMM. It is a property of God.

Furthermore:
- There is nothing in the body of the tablet that goes against the
physicality of the school. In fact, given the education that it
provides, gives more weight to the fact that creatures of God are to
benefit from it more than anything else.

The reference to the infancy stage of HWGSMM may not be interpreted in
a metaphorical way whatever one would make up one for it.
Although an infant does not have the physical or mental ability to
make any ruling, the point of the matter here is that HWGSMM will be
HWGSMM as soon as His first cells are created and hence his authority
is established even before He is born. So the allusion to the infancy
stage of the HWGSMM is merely a pointer to this fact. When you read
the second sentence where is says 'you will however undoubtedly wait
for 19 years' it becomes even more clear that the reference to the
infancy stage of HWGSMM is a reference to a time that is earlier than
when He gets to dismiss unbelievers.

Concerning the remainder of the tablet where it says 'In the next
resurrection ..... you will undoubtedly wait for 19 years ..":
This segment of the tablet makes up the backbone of the Bahai argument
for having the Mustaghath to have reduced to 19 years.
The interesting point is that Bahais only take out the '19 years' out
of the context of this segment and then complete the rest of it
themselves.

They don't tell you when this 19 years is to start from and what is
its context. As I said before, the two words that kills of the
backbone of the Bahai claim to reducing the Bayani era to 19 years is
this: 'in the next resurrection'.
Again there are only two words here but they both testify that the
Bahai claim is without a foundation. One of them is 'in the next', the
other one is 'resurrection'. Each one of them and their combinations
seals the fate of Bahaism as a bogus claim.
The word 'in the next' means that the commencement of the '19' years
has not yet started. Bahai claim puts it to have already started in
1844.
The word 'resurrection' must not be confused with 'manifestation'. The
resurrection is defined in Bayan to be a period that begins with the
appearance of the Sun of the Truth (that is the proclamation) and ends
with when the Sun of the Truth Sets (that is the Lord of the
manifestation ascends from his body). The resurrection of Bayan starts
when HWGSMM makes His proclamation and ends when He physically dies.
In that period and in the 19th year He declares that anyone still in
the Bayan is considered an unbeliever. The precedence for this was
that the Primal Point spent the first 5 years (the Bab-hood period) to
make the preparation. In the sixth year He declared Muslims still in
Islam as unbelievers.

For Husayn-Ali's story to hold water and to have dismissed people of
Bayan in 1863, he must have declared his alleged mission in 1844!
Figure that!

Steve

Additionally, a detailed response to what Paul thinks is reponse to my
points and he posted several days ago but was lost and did not relaise
it was lost for a few days, will come when I get time to spare.

.

Quantcast