Re: Today's Quote

Hi Hong,

the
main point was that you are satisfied with the concepts against which
many here object.

I recognize an authority they do not recognize, and am willing to live with
decisions that do not seem logical to me at this time because I respect that
authority. In fact, from my perspective they can complain about the
illogical aspects of those decisions and it will not change anything, and I
can accept those decisions and still nothing is changed, except that I am
satisfied and they are not. I have accepted the ambiguity joyfully and
incorporated it into my life, and I can build on that acceptance and busy
myself with things I consider much more important.

As I understand it, much of the unpleasant language here arises from
the frustrations people have on issues they consider very important.
This sense of outrage has made it hard for them to remember the
methodology of their own teachings. That is, in my view, Bahais are
encouraged to respect everyone, rely on God and look at what is
beneficial.

Amen.

...this is a key attitude
of attractive religion, that the believer focus on personal
development, listen keenly to what is shared and accept the validity
of other viewpoints. It is not a situation from the past where there
was conflict. This is a concept for the future meant to solve
conflict.

I think it goes beyond conflict solving. It is meant to foster personal
development. If I make myself a better person by, according to the advice
of the Baha'i Writings, aiding my fellow humans to develop as well there can
be no bad outcome in the long run. I do not think focusing on conflict
solving will necessarily solve conflicts, but a focus on higher virtues,
spirituality, compassion, love, and bringing such things to light and
supplying aid to those who need it will solve conflicts. So my purpose is
not to solve conflicts, but rather to aid others where I can with that which
I personally know will help.

Then, I think perhaps I misunderstood your reply in the earlier post.
For you the issue is not one where you do not want women at the top
regardless. It is one where you agree with whatever the Prophet said.
That is, if he had said there would be eight or ten or whatever
number, or he said only women or he said only men, the details do not
matter. It is that he said it. Did I understand you correctly?

I follow the advice and teachings of the Baha'i Faith because that has been
what has been most valuable to me in the past. According to those teachings
the importance of the Words of Baha'u'llah cannot be overstated. I do not
wish to challenge those Words, which I hold sacred. In my mind, no good can
come of changing Baha'u'llah's Will, and adhering to His Will is a grand
challenge that I accept. Bickering over what His Will should be or should
have been is not a game I will play earnestly. I will not consider
seriously changing what I believe is His Will.

Really that is a correct opinion. Others exist. For some others
something you find challenging may be easy. Some people may not agree
with fasting and it may not make sense to them. And others may not be
bothered by it at all.

Fasting is a good example. I know many Baha'is who just can't do it. So
what? I can and I will. I will not bicker or question the paths of others,
but I find holding myself to this discipline a good thing for me. Others
don't. Some day there may be a sect of the Baha'i Faith yet that agrees
with everything except the fast, and show scientific evidence how bad the
fast is, and we should all indulge ourselves in moderation as the Writings
attest and change the fasting laws of the Baha'i Faith.

... very difficult challenges meet many people
with the concepts Bahai teaches concerning the equality of the
different kinds of people. Some religious people have understood this
throughout history, and still the terrible conflicts and wars show
that prejudices have been problems throughout history and continue to
the present

One of the clearest universal dates of change I can think of is 1844. There
was also a lot that happened in 1492 around the world, but anyway, in 1844
the beginnings of the modern women's rights movements around the world
began. In my opinion that is evidence of the spiritual potential released
by the beginning of this new, modern age. All of the principles of my
religion are being accepted into the mainstream thought as though they were
just logical and true throughout history. They weren't, as you point out.
But today they need no explanation, and my daughter has never heard a racist
comment that was not challenged immediately.

Some day, I firmly believe, the value of discipline and loyalty to a cause
will be just as evident as the elimination of prejudices.

Did
I say this correctly? I mean that a future event can only be
considered not very possible, it cannot (in my opinion) be considered
impossible until that future happens, passes and becomes history.

You said it very well. I think your opinion and mine (about how a person's
intentions when they act are very important) might harmonize if we were to
talk about his further.

I agree that it is good to follow laws in general. This is how
individuals can get along. As I understand it, there is also this
aspect of accepting different people understand things differently.
All can be correct, if they see with wide eyes. Does that make sense?

Yes, I agree. But still girls should not join the Boy Scouts.

--Kent


<honghsien@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1173472405.373784.156610@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hi, Kent.

On Mar 9, 6:58 am, "Kent Johnson" <k...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Hong,

In my opinion, if you knew a way
to effect the change that all here would be agreeable, you would want
to.

I don't think so. I don't think you can ever please everyone. If you
mean
all of those on this TRB list, well, I don't think it possible either to
please them all, or to agree myself with what they, generally, would want
done.

Thanks for your comments. I think I meant that were it possible
somehow they become agreeable, then that would be okay. Actually the
main point was that you are satisfied with the concepts against which
many here object.

I am happy with how things are in the Baha'i Faith, and I do not want to
change it. I would change some people, but changing others is not
possible,
so to want them to change is my problem, not theirs.

As I understand it, much of the unpleasant language here arises from
the frustrations people have on issues they consider very important.
This sense of outrage has made it hard for them to remember the
methodology of their own teachings. That is, in my view, Bahais are
encouraged to respect everyone, rely on God and look at what is
beneficial.

I can only change myself, and part of being a Baha'i is embracing the
possible, loving God and His creation, and being joyful in my attempts to
work with reality as I perceive it. Changing another person is not
something that I believe I can accomplish or should attempt. So here I
am
trying to talk to you about my perceptions, my efforts, my Faith in the
possible, the accomplishable, my advancement and that of what I can
effect,
because anything beyond that would not be an honest sharing of who I am,
but
rather a guess or approximation of what others must think or believe. I
am
only talking to you about me and my efforts.

Thank you for sharing. And, as I understand it, this is a key attitude
of attractive religion, that the believer focus on personal
development, listen keenly to what is shared and accept the validity
of other viewpoints. It is not a situation from the past where there
was conflict. This is a concept for the future meant to solve
conflict. I like the thought of it. Thank you for trying.

And, I understand you (correct me, if I'm wrong)
do not obey grudgingly, because you agree with the decisions. That is,
if you had the authority to permit women to be top administrators, you
would not allow them to be so.

The prohibition of women from the nine-person seat of the Universal House
of
Justice is a declaration of Baha'u'llah. No amount of interpretation or
translation will change that fact, although there has been plenty. This
is
the discussion: to change Baha'u'llah's Own proclamation of His Religion
or
not.

This is a viewpoint. And, if I understand things correctly, this
viewpoint is correct, along with others.

From my viewpoint and that of the Administrative Order this is not
possible.
Did Baha'u'llah make a mistake? If so, who has the ability to right that
mistake? And if that person or body or proclamation can right that
mistake,
what other powers does that person or body or proclamation have?

Then, I think perhaps I misunderstood your reply in the earlier post.
For you the issue is not one where you do not want women at the top
regardless. It is one where you agree with whatever the Prophet said.
That is, if he had said there would be eight or ten or whatever
number, or he said only women or he said only men, the details do not
matter. It is that he said it. Did I understand you correctly?

So rather than open that issue, rather than re-think the Baha'i Faith
without the benefit of the Founder's continued presence, I advocate we
live
with this ambiguity. There is plenty of guidance in the Writings about
this
issue. For example, Abdu'l-Baha said the reason for this exclusion of
women
from nine jobs in the universe will, erelong, become as plain as the
noonday
sun.

I have heard this and I find it very interesting.

No one knows why. No one. And I can live with that. There is so much
ambiguity in every religion, in science, in every discipline, that this
ambiguity is, by comparison with my endeavor to become a Baha'i, to
become a
better person, a small challenge.

Really that is a correct opinion. Others exist. For some others
something you find challenging may be easy. Some people may not agree
with fasting and it may not make sense to them. And others may not be
bothered by it at all.

Actually, in my opinion very difficult challenges meet many people
with the concepts Bahai teaches concerning the equality of the
different kinds of people. Some religious people have understood this
throughout history, and still the terrible conflicts and wars show
that prejudices have been problems throughout history and continue to
the present.

So I do not want to change the Baha'i Faith even though I do not
understand
some parts of it. Living with ambiguity is a part of life.

That is one attitude. Actually, there is deep spirituality, in my
opinion, in trying to realize what is possible and what is not
possible. I will share my personal opinion in general (not getting
into the details of a specific Bahai situation, but looking at my
attitude to life in general). As I see it, I cannot change the past.
That is history and maybe I can learn from it, but I cannot live
yesterday again. It has passed. Tomorrow remains open.

Now, maybe I can assess that something is very difficult to do, so
what is the point of trying. However, since it has not happened, then
the outcome remains only hypothetical, however likely or unlikely. Did
I say this correctly? I mean that a future event can only be
considered not very possible, it cannot (in my opinion) be considered
impossible until that future happens, passes and becomes history.

This is a fine distinction and maybe it has little to do with this
Bahai specific case. And it is how I see reality.

I think it is important to remind all that it
is very possible to see this as an assertion of the sublime uniqueness
of spirituality in total. These words can include the Jewish,
Christian, Islamic, etc. religions. They need not be read as specific
for Baha'is.

Yes that is an important, vital, and fundamental teaching of the Baha'i
Faith. The Cause of God is not the Baha'i Faith but rather it is my
purpose, my hope and prayer to make the Baha'i Faith the closest
approximation of the Cause of God that I can endeavor to aid and
maintain.
You will not find me asking for people to join my Faith but rather asking
them to join the Cause of God as they understand it and do what they
believe
God bids them to do.

Thank you. I thought it important to make that point clearly, as some
people could be reading this and get the impression Bahai saw itself
as superior to all other religions. Actually, from what I know, Bahai
sees all religions as true. The reasonable thought is that one God is
the cause of religion, so, of course, all are divine.

I have read and agree with all of the rest of what you said in your fine
answer to my opinions and the quotes I supplied. I only wish to
re-iterate
that following the laws, even if they are not entirely understood, is a
good
thing in religion. Obedience is a good thing if no harm will come of it.
Obedience instills in people loyalty, discipline and good will. And
ambiguity is a part of life.

I agree that it is good to follow laws in general. This is how
individuals can get along. As I understand it, there is also this
aspect of accepting different people understand things differently.
All can be correct, if they see with wide eyes. Does that make sense?

Thanks for reading, this is the best discussion I have had on any list in
a
long time.

Thank you. Much of the quality of the discussion comes from you.

--Kent

Peace,

Hong



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