Re: Today's Quote

Hi Hong, I hear your good wishes and your issue which I believe you most
clearly explained with this short sentence:

"Now, this is very clearly a case of a mistaken policy."

I do not agree for many varied and complicated reasons. It is not my
purpose here to get into a discussion as literally hundreds of Baha'is have
before me. I cannot affect any change, and I do not want to. My point here
is to voice support for the decisions of the Administrative Order of
Baha'u'llah as I understand it, as I experience it, as I see it.

The purpose of my Faith, the Baha'i Faith, is not to gain more members, as
you seem to suggest. But here I am debating with you as I just said I would
not do. So let me state it better with a quote from Baha'u'llah:

"To none is given the right to protest against any one concerning that which
hath befallen the Cause of God. It behooveth whosoever hath set his face
towards the Most Sublime Horizon to cleave tenaciously unto the cord of
patience, and to put his reliance in God, the Help in Peril, the
Unconstrained. O ye loved ones of God! Drink your fill from the wellspring
of wisdom, and soar ye in the atmosphere of wisdom, and speak forth with
wisdom and eloquence. Thus biddeth you your Lord, the Almighty, the
All-Knowing." (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 98)

"Verily, I say: The Cause of God hath never had, nor hath it now, any peer
or equal. Rend asunder the veils of idle fancies. He, in truth, will
reinforce thee, and assist thee, as a token of His grace. He, verily, is the
Strong, the All-Subduing, the Almighty. While there is yet time, and the
blessed Lote-Tree is still calling aloud amongst men, suffer not thyself to
be deprived. Place thy trust in God, and commit thine affairs unto Him, and
enter then the Most Great Prison, that thou mayest hear what no ear hath
ever heard, and gaze on that which no eye hath ever seen. After such an
exposition, can there remain any room for doubt? Nay, by God, Who standeth
over His Cause! In truth I say: On this day the blessed words "But He is the
Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets" have found their consummation
in the verse "The day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the
worlds." Render thou thanksgiving unto God, for so great a bounty."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 113)

"Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather,
We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power. To
this beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath revealed.
Meditate upon this, O men of insight!" (Baha'u'llah, Synopsis and
Codification of the Kitab-i-Aqdas)

My purpose as a Baha'i is to develop myself for Him. I am happy to try to
follow all the commands of God and find that they are helpful to me. Some
of them I did not understand but do now. Some of them I do not understand
but pray that I will. But in any case I submit that no harm can come to
anyone who follows the laws and precepts as administered by the Baha'i
Faith, and great benefit can come to anyone who is associated with anyone
who follows those laws. It is the garden I keep talking about.

Please don't try to drag me into a debate. I attempt to live as a Baha'i
should live because it is good for me, good for the world, and good for the
Spirit of the Ages. The mere laws are not important, but recognizing His
authority is very important.

--Kent


<honghsien@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1173316823.547320.325920@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hi, Kent and Michael.

On Mar 7, 6:49 pm, "Kent Johnson" <k...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Michael,

I have read your concerns, and I understand your feelings on these
matters.
I believe there is only one issue in what you write to me that you wish
me
to respond about. You state it thus:

So, to one group it is simple, people should just follow the rules, if
they want to play soccer. To another it is simple, the Islamic
headscarf
is no obstacle to playing soccer.

Those of us who trust our "FIFA" (the Administrative Order of the Baha'i
Faith) believe justice will be done, wisdom is being served, and airing
these complaints in public do not serve our Faith or humanity as a whole.

Many thanks to both of you. If you agree, I hope it is okay for my
viewpoint. As I understand it, the key to spirituality is moderation.
The internet demonstrates very immoderate speech sometimes, and also
to have no internet at all would be immoderate. Similarily, I think,
the Baha'i Faith has an ideal of appropriate speech. This I believe
you, Michael, try to write, and for this you, Kent, thank him. And it
is the same that you, Kent, try to write in moderate style and you,
Michael, thank him.

This is the style, the manner of writing. There is manner and there is
substance. I apologize if my English style mistakenly seems
immoderate. That is not the intent. And, as I understand Baha'i, truth
may frankly be expressed and while there are different viewpoints, yet
people can remain friendly. This I try to do, talk straight, with
friendly intent.

Those who do not trust the Baha'i Administrative Order do not feel the
same
way, I am sure.

If our Administrative Order is in error, we are assured in the Writings
of
Baha'u'llah, that the error will be corrected in time.

I do not possess your knowledge of the Baha'i faith, and I have heard
that one of the key aspects of current Baha'i is the following: There
is a Baha'i teaching that whatever it is the administrators of Baha'i
decide that the Baha'is try very hard to follow, even if they disagree
with it. And, because everyone is trying very hard to accomplish it,
then if still it fails, all the more evidently this failure is clearly
due to the erroneous decision by the administrators. And, then Baha'i
administrators will change their policy.

Now, even years ago the Baha'i administrators had decided that they
would not allow women to become top administrators. And even years
ago, back in the 80s, it was clear that the Baha'i Faith was failing
to achieve the goals of its administrators, although there was effort
to accomplish these goals.

Primarily, the goal in the 80s was for troops of people to be taught
about Baha'i. These troops would be at the beginning of eventually the
majority of people on Earth becoming Baha'i. I have heard this. And
the response in the West and other places was that Baha'i was very
interesting, but when the information became available (because it was
not up front) that although Baha'i taught there is full equality of
women with men, yet Baha'i did not let women be top administrators,
then instead of troops becoming Baha'is, troops left Baha'i.

Now, this is very clearly a case of a mistaken policy. And, as I
imperfectly observe the history of the angry words here and elsewhere
in Baha'i cyberspace is on the one hand because the administrators
refused to follow the rules and change a failed policy that had been
supported, although grudgingly. So, then the annoyance came. On the
other hand, some people (Kent, I think you are one of these, though
you speak in a moderate manner) were very annoyed that the
administrators were not obeyed even though the policy had obviously
failed.

In the mean time I
find it my duty to obey joyfully that which I believe Baha'u'llah
decreed.
I do not hold it against anyone at all who does not agree with me.

Michael can speak for himself. And, as I see his point, it is that the
others who feel women are equal to men see this also in what
Baha'u'llah decreed.

But I have been in several situations where those who disagreed did not
withhold "a lot of the very irate and foul language that gets posted to
this
NG and many others". It has been my experience that many who do not get
their way just get more entrenched in their positions and no amount of
reason, love, respect or anything else will budge them.

I think honestly there are two factions at least, both of whom got
entrenched in their positions. And I do not believe it is impossible
for them to come out of such entrenched positions. Both of them. I'm
not sure if Michael meant that he sees truth in your position. And it
looks to me like you refuse to see his position as a Baha'i position.
It is up to him, if that's what he means, to say so. And the position
that women are equal and can be top administrators in Baha'i is a
Baha'i position.

I believe it is
their personal decision, and I let it go. I cannot change them, and I
believe the problem is that they are trying to change me and my Faith.

From where I sit, what has changed in Baha'i is that it has run away
from the goal of giving everyone an example of how to talk over
problems peacefully and with a calm voice. Michael speaks very well in
saying that the Baha'is in 1912 with a Baha'i ambassador of Iran in
Washington and the son of the Baha'i prophet travelling in America
uniting Iranian and American hearts today should have achieved peace
between the US and Iran.

As I understand Baha'i, one of the clear signs of being on the
moderate path, the Middle Way as the Buddha would say, is that already
by this 21st Century the wars will be history and disputes will be
settled diplomatically. So, one understanding of reality is that this
has not happened because Baha'i changed already. And maybe if it, with
polite voices, examines really what is beneficial, then it can reach
above the obstacles that seem so annoying to both factions.

I only express my conviction that Baha'i is all about resolving
such differences as whether headscarves are admissable in soccer or the
divisive issues mentioned on this newsgroup about Baha'is through an
open
minded, peace inducing and peace sustaining manner.

Those who accept no Authority whatever will not be induced to peace,
sustained or not. We must first accept some authority, and the authority
provided by the Baha'i Administrative Order is a much easier one to
accept
than many examples I can name.

I do not have your knowledge of Baha'i. And, I know that ideally there
is some appeal to a democratically elected leadership such as Baha'i
is said to have. However, those most attracted to a democratic
leadership include some most upset with this undemocratic insistence
by Baha'i administrators that even though their policy failed they
won't change it. And the democratic ideal that women are equal to men
means those democrats do not have your ease of acceptance.

On the one hand, a Baha'i pope would be easier for some traditionally
religious people to obey. Whatever in the world the pope says, that is
truth. Although, you will note that even the Catholic pope is not
accepted by most Western Catholics when he speaks as one with an old
attitude to women, etc. He is accepted grudgingly, or he is ignored.

No one ever said the Baha'i Faith was for
everyone.

As I said already, I heard Baha'i saw itself for everyone or mostly
everyone. This meant that it was tolerant inside. That was its value
to the world, regardless of whether really everyone, or most people,
ever would accept it. It was the attitude that inside and outside it
recognized a lot of opinions and did not have imposed thought. I mean
here that the Baha'i philosophy was modern in a good sense and
permitted wide differences of beliefs.

The key to the problem today is exactly this one that now some say
(thank you, Kent, for doing so with moderate language) that the
administrators must be obeyed even though their policy has failed and
some (thank you, Michael, for speaking politely) do not fully agree
with this point of view.

It is only for those of us who want to join. The illustration is
as a garden. Everyone is invited to enjoy it, but the Baha'is tend it,
and
obviously there are implicit rules to how such a garden must be tended.
If
we disagree on how to tend garden, the obvious truth is that our methods
will not change overnight, and I am sorry if you believe that is rude.

He did not call you rude; he called you polite. I do as well.
Actually, since my information is this situation goes back at least to
the 80s, it already cannot be overnight from that point of view.And,
at some point it is possible the mistaken policy will change. At some
point and it will be overnight from the point of observation of the
day before, whatever that date is (today or whichever other one) that
policy can change.

The methods ideally written: talking things over with calm voices,
accepting differences of opinions, being an example of reason balanced
with emotion, faith and spirit do not have to change. The methods
ideally only become more practised.

Forgive my rudeness, if so it seems. I tried to be moderate in tone,
and frank in saying how I see it.

Warm Peace to all,

Hong


If we are wrong one day our error will be apparent, and we will change
the
way we tend garden. That is our Faith, the Baha'i Faith. For now I do
not
see the problems that you see. The garden to me is as beautiful as it
ever
was.

Being careful what we pray for, I hope that you can join me in calling
for,
God willing, all of us to see all of our errors one day and justice be
done.

Warmly, --Kent

"Michael McKenny" <b...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:esn4sm$7et$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hi, Kent.

I've already partly responded to this post. Here is the rest of my
response, or at least some more.

"Kent Johnson" (k...@xxxxxxxxxx) writes:

And the bickering I hear amounts to the same issues as girls wanting
into
the Boy Scouts and such.

That is one way of looking at it. And a large part of consultation, as
I
understand it, has to do with the Baha'i teaching that naturally people
have differing opinions and what seems so simple to one person doesn't
make the same sense to others.

I have no idea if the Canadian dispute about soccer has reached you. I
know that in London, England (not London, Ontario) FIFA this past
weekend
considered this issue and made no decision.

It is very simple. There is a rule about not wearing something that is
dangerous. A referee in a Canadian tournament in Quebec province
applied this rule to ask an eleven year old girl to remove her
headscarf
or not play. She had played the previous day and in Ontario this rule
has
nothing to do with headscarves. When the referee insisted, her entire
team
and four others from Ontario pulled out of the tournament.

So, to one group it is simple, people should just follow the rules, if
they want to play soccer. To another it is simple, the Islamic
headscarf
is no obstacle to playing soccer.

If I can pledge and declare and do my utmost to be associated with the
Word
of God for this day others can too.

Your point is very clearly expressed. And is it not similar to how the
referees in Quebec province and Ontario province consider the written
rules of soccer. In one province a headscarf is considered perfectly
safe
and Muslim girls can play the game; in another the rules would exclude
them.

In my opinion, Baha'i is all about inclusion. I think this eleven year
old
Muslim girl is a very good player and something less than good
sportsmanship was possibly behind trying to ban her after the
tournament's
first day. However, Baha'i ideally isn't about that absence of good
sportsmanship or the imposition of exclusivist interpretations.

I'm not seeking confrontation. I accept you have stated an opinion,
though
I may have misunderstood it or drawn inferences further than what you
intended. I only express my conviction that Baha'i is all about
resolving
such differences as whether headscarves are admissable in soccer or the
divisive issues mentioned on this newsgroup about Baha'is through an
open
minded, peace inducing and peace sustaining manner.

And if they can't that's fine too. But
to allow anyone with any beliefs to join my religion cheapens my
pledge,
my
declaration, and my efforts. Either you want to be a Baha'i or you
don't,
and that is a personal choice, and the truth in each person's heart
is
known of God so any bickering is not the fault of the Baha'i Faith,
but
rather the individuals who wish to take their parts in this bickering.

As I perceive it, the Baha'i Faith itself is an awesome entity, as
Islam
and the other revelations of the Divine, the All-Merciful, the
Compassionate. Humans bicker about the revelation. And in a very human
fashion humans seek to define Baha'i according to a limited and
exclusivist point of view that however, in my opinion, has little to do
with the wondrous scope of the Faith.

Thanks for being a voice of reason here in the netherworlds.

--Kent

Thank you again for politely sharing your views. I have tried to do the
same
in my reply.

Peace,

Michael




.

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