Re: in case it gets lost I can find it here.

Hi Tom.

You said nothing about enforcing, you are right. You said: >It is, however,
doing a disservice to present the Baha'i Faith to the public as only
applying to the Baha'is.<

My response was: > I don't think we have a choice. The Baha'i Faith is only
for Baha'is. We do not have the means or the inclination to enforce on
others what we voluntarily take on for ourselves.

So what does your response mean? You say we should say the Baha'i Faith is
only for Baha'is. I say why not? The truth is, the Baha'i Faith is only
for Baha'is. I don't see any alternative. Do you?

We can be firm in our
presentation that this is what all humanity needs (and everyone has
choices to make about it) or that it is only for Baha'is.

Humanity needs to be virtuous, but only Baha'is need to be Baha'is.

We need to get on with
building our community thru service to humanity, thru deepening, thru
internal community building, and thru all the other activities that
our institutions are calling on us to carry out.

And if we do that we will provide an example for humanity of what they can
accomplish. The community of the Greatest Name has a lot to live up to.
But it would be counter-productive to tell people who are not Baha'is that
they have to act like Baha'is. Have them act like their own religions tell
them to act. That would be a great start.

...our spiritual requirement to present the faith to the public as
something that all humanity needs.

Virtues is what all humanity needs. Charity, spirituality, knowledge. The
Baha'i Faith does not own those things. We need to encourage those things
where we find them, and show those things where we don't. When we become
good at it, we can but hope that it will appear that the Baha'is own
virtues, but until then let's just be happy when we see them. If someone
does a good deed in the name of Vishnu or Thor or because their mother told
them to, or to keep the voices in their head quiet, it is still a good deed.

And for whatever reason it is done is a good reason.

--Kent


<th190@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:44B89AC0.16692.1DFA6F@xxxxxxxxxxxx
First I have said nothing about enforcing. Then USSR enforced peace and
transquilty on its empire. And what happened when the empire collapsed?
All the old conflicts broke out again with increased vemon. Force and
spiritual growth don't work together. People develop spiritual virtues
by making choices. That is why the Baha'i community does not force us
to be virtuous. Removal of administrative rights is not to force people
to behave, it is primarily to protect the faith.

We have a choice about how we present the Faith. We can be firm in our
presentation that this is what all humanity needs (and everyone has
choices to make about it) or that it is only for Baha'is. I am simply
stating that the latter method of presentation is inaccurate and is a
disservice to the public. They need it and if they don't have it they
will continue to get burned. The Baha'i Faith is a comprehensive
package. Other religions (and philosophies and schools) have pieces
of it in that they are reflecting the Spirit of the Age but they do
not have the comprehensive remedy that the Divine Physician has told
us to apply to ailing humanity.

Now one may argue that the Baha'is do not really fully reflect the
teachings of the Baha'i Faith. Of course. We need to get on with
building our community thru service to humanity, thru deepening, thru
internal community building, and thru all the other activities that
our institutions are calling on us to carry out. This need for a vast
amount of internal growth and development does not detract in the least
from our spiritual requirement to present the faith to the public as
something that all humanity needs.

Possibly this is something that you can agree with?

Tom

On 14 Jul 2006 at 9:03, Kent Johnson wrote:

Hi Tom, I agreed with a lot of what you said.

It is, however, doing a disservice to present the Baha'i Faith
to the public as only applying to the Baha'is.<

I don't think we have a choice. The Baha'i Faith is only for Baha'is.
We
do not have the means or the inclination to enforce on others what we
voluntarily take on for ourselves.

We all believe in the value of the virtues we are taught. We believe
those
virtues have values for everyone, but I don't think we can ever enforce
virtues. No one's laws can force honesty, though we can punish
dishonesty.
But maybe I am misunderstanding you. How does the Baha'i Faith apply to
non-Baha'is in your opinion?

The Baha'i laws and
teachings are needed by all of humanity.

Religious laws and teachings are needed by all humanity. Since we are
Baha'is, we believe our teachings are the best, but some of the other
religions have darn good teachings as well.

Only the Baha'is can
be considered to have a spiritual and intellectual obligation
to follow these laws based on our covenant with Baha'u'llah but
all humanity desparately needs these laws and teachings and we
need to tell them this in ways that are calculated to get thru
the veils of superstition and materialism.

Most of humanity has accepted the vast majority of those teachings to
some
extent. What the world needs is an inspired band who can arise above the
superstition and materialism and inspire virtue and charity, and good
will
to all. God willing that will be the Baha'is, but apparently not yet.

--Kent


<th190@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:44B49E69.5241.1AD5EEA@xxxxxxxxxxxx
And I think it is clear that you are mistating how this is being
presented. No God does not single out people and punish them for
violating the Covenant. Nor does God punish people for jumping
off cliffs or tall buildings.

I agree that the condition of global society is pretty good
considering ... but considering what? Considering how far that
society is from applying the remedy supplied by the Divine
Physician? Yes I agree - its a real mess. Considering how bad
things used to be? Yes I agree - vastly better than in the 19th
century.

Yes the Baha'is need to be especially vigilant and active since
we indeed do have some idea about the underlying causes of the
problems.

It is, however, doing a disservice to present the Baha'i Faith
to the public as only applying to the Baha'is. This is very
much like telling a child that if he doesn't believe that the
hot stove will burn him then it won't. The Baha'i laws and
teachings are needed by all of humanity. Only the Baha'is can
be considered to have a spiritual and intellectual obligation
to follow these laws based on our covenant with Baha'u'llah but
all humanity desparately needs these laws and teachings and we
need to tell them this in ways that are calculated to get thru
the veils of superstition and materialism.

Tom

On 11 Jul 2006 at 16:31, Kent Johnson wrote:

Hi Tom. I think I have made it clear that I don't believe the way
this
is
being presented is right. I am a Baha'i, but I don't think God either
punishes offenders against the Covenant or that He can be said to
enforce
the Covenant.

I believe that Baha'is should be true to the Covenant as an aid to
ourselves
and all of humanity. My Faith in God is such that I understand no
punishment or enforcing of rules from Him, but rather if I listen and
obey I
receive guidance and grace, so much more than I deserve.

I think the condition of society is pretty good, considering. And we
should
all " be watching out" as you put it, whether we are Baha'is or not.
In
fact, I think it is up to the Baha'is to do more of the watching out
since
we claim to have His guidance in greater measure than other groups..

As our capacities to do good grow, do does our capacity to do harm. I
am
more inclined to dwell on our capacities to do good, however.

I think our society as a whole is doing a pretty good job of
incorporating
Baha'i principles into its fabric.

Thanks for reading, and nice to meet you. --Kent


<th190@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:44B1FE3B.22958.42E6F8@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Kent, Doug,

The "punishment" - (your word?} or consequences are pretty obvious.
Look at the condition of society today. Yes the world should really
be watching out. If our advances in technology are not married to
advances in spiritual development, then we have the capacity to do
serious destruction to human society and to the biosphere far
beyond our past capabilities. Hmm maybe we already doing this...

BTW is it punishment when a child sticks his hand on a hot stove
burner and gets burned? That is pretty similar to what society
is doing by ignoring the laws of the new age.

Tom

On 10 Jul 2006 at 7:20, Kent Johnson wrote:

Hi Doug,

I asked how God enforces the Covenant on members of other religions
and
you
say:

The spiritual laws, principles, teachings et al have an effect on
all
peoples and things, even the atoms.

So maybe you are saying that God will punish Buddhists, Hindus,
Jews,
Christians, Muslims and the non-religious in some new way. This is
a
punishment, you seem to imply, that is worse than anything God has
meted
out
to those who have denied Him in past millennia. This time the
world
should
really watch out.

Is that what you are saying?

--Kent


"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:bfaa7f9f69e292cb9f399b4ed3f85c2a@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Jul 9, 2006, at 8:55 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:

How is He planning on enforcing His Word, Doug? If a Muslim or
Jew
says
he
does not believe in the Covenant as stated by Baha'u'llah, how
is
this
religionist bound by these Baha'i Principles?

--Kent

I already answered you Kent. A person may not know or understand
the
law
of gravity but is still affected by it. Each Revelation from God
is
for
the entire Creation, not just the believers. The spiritual laws,
principles, teachings et al have an effect on all peoples and
things,
even
the atoms.

Maybe you are just wanting to start a discussion because I
thought
every
Baha'i knew this.

doug


.

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