Re: It is impossible for any woman or man to accept Shoghi Effendi's Guardianship without accepting the Authority of the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha'.
"Finnegan's Wake" <grim_reaper_mk2MAPS@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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>
> "Nosrat" <Nosrat@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Nosrat@xxxxxxxxxxx> > wrote in
message
> news:1fxDf.231649$V7.71106@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<news:1fxDf.231649$V7.71106@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ...
> > I did not have any doubt about the authenticity of the Master?s Will and
> > Testament and I became more certain when I compared the sacrad documents
> > with the photo copies of the Master?s writings and signatures I had in
my
> > possession. Also I studied and examined C. Ainsworth Mitchell?s report.
> > (who lived during the period 1862-1948) and the following is the result:
>
> Do note that your opinon is not that of an expert.
How do you know? Because it does not agree with yours?
The objective of a
> forgery is to deceive and fool. You are committed to the idea that this
> document is genuine - you cannot take an objective view thereof. You want
> to believe it is true - that makes you an ideal target for a forger. I
> really don't care one way or the other.
But your obsession to discredit the sacred document is evident.
For the avoidance of doubt, I accept
> Mitchell's report as that of an expert in his field. The only way he can
be
> disproved is by another expert in the field.
He did not prove a thing so there is no need to disprove.
That the document has not been
> forensically examined is compelling circumstantial evidence that its
> provenance is suspect, at the very least.
There was no need for that.
> >> She tried to get the photographs in the book examined by experts in
> >> America
> > but her request was rejected. After trying for nearly two years, she
> > decided
> > to look somewhere else for assistance and decided that the best place to
> > do
> > so would be in England. She was a rich woman and was able to persuade
Mr.
> > C. Ainsworth Mitchell to examine the photographs.
>
> Mitchell took on the task. That she was rich meant that she could pay the
> fee that he doubtless charged for his work - her wealth however did not
buy
> his opinion.
This has been something between Mrs White and Mr Mitchell and we can not
prove or disprove. But his acceptance of Mrs White?s request which was
rejected by all of the experts due to insufficiency of the photographs for a
professional and scientific examination of handwriting -- also writing such
a loose, erroneous and unreliable report, brings up the question as to why
did he risked his professional integrity? One answer may be the involvement
of considerable sum of money for him.
>
> > 2-The report of C, Ainsworth Mitchell.
> >
> > I found out that the report was dated June 3rd 1930, i.e. seventy-five
> > years
> > ago. The first thing which came to mind is that, in despite of the
> > advanced
> > scientific technology that exists today, and even with digital
technology
> > at
> > our finger tips, the reliability of hand-writing analysis remains under
> > question, ( A Mr Kohli has presented URLs to some related arguments and
> > court cases) and therefore this analysis, made seventy-five years ago on
> > the
> > basis of comparing some photographs of Persian writings, cannot be
> > considered reliable.
>
> The evidence of handwriting experts has been upheld in UK Courts for many
> years now, in both criminal and civil proceedings. The normal procedure
> here is for both prosecution and defence to instruct their own experts.
The
> reports are exchanged and the experts meet to resolve any differences.
> Unresolved differences go before the Court where the experts are subject
to
> examination and cross-examination.
And it has been practiced earlier in some other countries, so what?
It seems that you did not read what I wrote since what you say is totally
irrelevant. I wrote that today despite advanced scientific and digital
technology handwriting analyses are under question so analysis, made
seventy-five years ago on the basis of comparing some photographs of Persian
writings, cannot be considered reliable. Did you look to these URLs?
http://www-catalog.cpl.org/MARION/BBH-6623
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030418.html
http://www.law-forensic.com/lessons_of_handwriting.htm
>
> > A second thought is that under normal circumstances C. Ainsworth
Mitchell,
> > like his other colleagues, should not have accepted Mrs White?s proposal
> > for
> > the following reasons:
> >
> > A- He had no knowledge of the language used in the writings, not even
> > knowing the alphabet of the language and possibly not even knowing that
> > writings in the Persian language are written from right to left, i.e.,
> > opposite from English, and he certainly would have lacked knowledge of
the
> > different styles of Persian writings.
>
> This is a speculation on your part . Mitchell had done work for the
British
> Museum; London was the centre of an Empire with extensive possessions and
> interests in the East - do you really think that he knew nothing about
> Eastern script? In the alternative do you think he, an eminent expert,
was
> so short of work that he would take on a job for which he was not
qualified?
I do not have any information about his personality or if he had a lot of
work or didn?t; his report is the basis of my Judgement, however we know
that in October 1929 the Stock Market Crash in New York and great Depression
had immediate and devastating effects on Britain. By the end of 1930
unemployment had more than doubled from 1 million to 2.5 million and the
exports had fallen in value by 50% Government revenues contracted as
national income fell, while the cost of assisting the jobless rose.
>
> > B- He did not have access to the original documents, which therefore
made
> > chemical examination of the paper, ink and pen strokes impossible.
>
> Something that he acknowledges in his report. Obviously he is an
honourable
> man not seeking to deceive. He does however not consider that these will
> prevent his coming to an opinion.
He could be a more honourable man if, like all of the other honourable
experts, he had said the truth to Mrs White that on the basis of
photographs, a scientific and professional examination was not possible.
?But, just by writing this, possibly he tried to protect himself.
>
> > C-The date of the writings was unknown to him.
>
> Hardly! The last date for them was 1921 and I'm sure that in her
> instructions Mrs White gave him such information as she had that would
allow
> of their being connected to within a few years, all that is needed, of
their
> composition.
How could Mrs White have given him the information that she, herself, didn?t
have? Abdu?l-Baha wrote his sacred Will and Testament over a long period of
time.
>
> > D-The documents presented to him as the authentic writings of Abdu?
l-Baha
> > were only photographs.
>
> As was the Alleged W&T - looks like he was comparing like with like.
>
> > Usually a proper examination report of a document initially supplies
some
> > information about the document to be examined such as the appearance and
> > shape, number of pages, the language of the document, size of the paper,
> > format and style of the writing etc. The C. Ainsworth Mitchell report
> > lacks
> > information even about the difference between Part One and the two other
> > parts. (Abdu'l-Baha wrote Part one of His Will and Testament in full
> > page
> > while He wrote part Two and Three in two columns). This sacred document
is
> > comprised of nine pages while the report talks about pages nine & ten.
>
> He was examining photographs, not the document. I would consider opinion
> based on other than what was in the photographs to be extraneous and
outwith
> his remit. From his POV there may well have been no material difference
> between Part 1 and 2.
So he was not able to understand necessary information from the photos to
present a comprehensive and professional report.
>
> > C. Ainsworth Mitchell in his report states that ?A comparison of the
four
> > signatures on the envelope of the alleged will with the four
authenticated
> > signatures reveals many striking differences in the mode of formation of
> > the
> > characters.? Mrs. White in her book has printed the photographs of the
> > memorial writing of Abdu?l-Baha in the Bible of the Unitarian Church at
> > Montclair N. J. and also his memorial writing in the Bible of the City
> > Temple, London that she submitted to C. Ainsworth Mitchell. As everybody
> > can
> > see, the first one ends with the initials of the Master, while the
second
> > one ends with the printed name of the Master and even those who are not
> > familiar with Persian writings can realise the difference between the
> > initials and the printed name.
>
> I fear you do not understand the techniques of handwriting analysis - it
is
> not the characters that are examined but the way in which they are
written.
> Handwriting is distinctive and unique - just like the various styles
adopted
> by artists. Now if a Van Gogh or Da Vinci can be forged (as to fool
> experts) why can handwriting not be forged as to fool non-experts?
No need for fear, I understand completely and possibly more than you.
For your information: most of the letters in Persian Alphabet change their
shape when are used in the words, the way we write letters separately is
different than when we write them in a word (names, specially signatures)
and this is one of the reasons that shows lack of the credibility of the
report when he called and considered the initials as authentic signature of
Master and same time shows that he is not familiar with the language.
>
> Mrs White in her book didn?t print the
> > photographs taken from letters to Mrs Stannard. Also she did not print
the
> > other photograph of Mrs. Devine?s letter.
> > As I do not have access to these photographs of the letters to Mrs.
> > Stannard
> > and Mrs. Devine I can?t say that they are signed by Abdu?l-Baha or not
but
> > from the writings of Mrs. White it is understood that they are not hand
> > writings of the Master. In most cases, Abdu?l-Baha had written his
> > initials
> > on letters to individuals and possibly these letters are falling in the
> > same
> > category but something which is very obvious is that the two major
> > documents
> > in which the photographs were used for the preparation of the report do
> > not
> > have the signature of the Master (one is initialled and in the other his
> > name is simply written). Even if the three letters in the possession of
> > Mrs. Stannard and Mrs. Devine had the signature of Master (which I
doubt,
> > and consider a zero possibility) there could not be four authentic
> > signatures, for as C. Ainsworth Mitchell states in his report: ?A
> > comparison
> > of the four signatures on the envelope of the alleged will with the
*four*
> > authenticated signatures reveals many striking differences in the mode
of
> > the formation of the characters.?
>
> Read that last sentence very carefully! It disposes of your argument in
> toto.
I quoted the last sentence from the report in question. If he noticed the
striking differences in the mode of the formation of the characters, this is
good, since four initials must be different with four signatures in
formation and this is quite natural.
>
> > 1- C. Ainsworth Mitchell?s report, as he himself has admitted, is not a
> > scientific examination, and due to the above reasons discussed above
lacks
> > any credibility.
>
> Where did he say it was not scientific?
Here:
?Moreover some of the facts which are taken into consideration in the
scientific examination of an original document cannot be perfectly studied
in a photographic reproduction, such as, for example, the ink, paper,
penstrokes, and so on.?
>
> > 2- The handwriting, signature, style of writing and style of _expression
in
> > ?Abdu?l-Baha?s Will and Testament is the same as found in His other
> > Tablets
> > and writings and this is quite obvious to Iranian Baha?is.
> Few of whom saw the original but also worked from photographs.
Right but read the sentence again.
> > 3- Such possible unauthentic claimants to be beneficiaries of the Will
and
> > Testament as Muhammad-Ali, Badi?u?llah and Ahmad Sohrab did not
> > questioned
> > the authenticity of the Will and Testament since they recognized its
> > authenticity
> Or were taken in by it.
>
> The milieu in which Mitchell worked was the jurisprudence of English law.
> He was an expert witness governed by the following code of conduct: -
>
> http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/1998/1176.html
<http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/1998/1176.html>
>
> per Otton LJ
This code is in relation to courts and irrelevant here. Apparently, this
report didn?t find a way to court, so he was not an expert witness and he
was lucky that the credibility of his report was not examined in the court.
Six months ago I asked you if Mrs White took the matter to court or not but
you did not answer the question I can guess that she did her best but never
succeeded.
One of handwriting experts which Mrs White approached and like the others
did not accept her request was Mr Albert S. Osborne. Mrs. White wrote:
?Yet he was greatly interested, very kind, and gave me valuable advice. He
said that the document should be examined from three different angles. First
from the spiritual point of view. Does the alleged will agree with the
teachings and the intent that the maker held during his lifetime, or does
contradict them? Secondly, from the literary point of view. Is it written in
the style of Abdu?l-Baha? Thirdly, from scientific point of view? Mr.
Osborne emphasized the value of having the original document of the Will
examined.?
Nosrat
.
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