Re: A serious discussion about the need for more gun control

On 20 jan, 05:51, "SaPeIsMa" <SaPeI...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
<pba...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

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On 19 jan, 02:33, "SaPeIsMa" <SaPeI...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



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On 18 jan, 18:37, Jim Yanik <jya...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:> "
Why risk GOOD people's lives hoping career criminals will finally become
productive,law-abiding citizens?
THEY don't consider other's lives precious,so why should we consider
theirs
precious?

#
# Not all people who tresspass the law are the same.
# Some do consider (some) lives precious.
# The reason for valueing even the lives of hardened criminals,
# is the fact that morals are best preserved by keeping them simple.
# "don't kill" is a simpler form of morality than "don't kill nice
# people" and it doesn't depent on one's apreciation of "nice".
# Therefore it has a better survival chance within out set of morals.
#

Why should I value the life of the hardened criminal who has demonstrated
repeatedly that he does not feel the same way about our lives ?
It's a stupid and IMmoral position to take

#
#
# If you meat a criminal with a gun in youir hand,
# you will probably have no information, whether (s)he is hardened,
# and you probably will not know wether or not this criminal has
# committed a crime before. And you will probably not know at all what
# (s)he feels.
# surely if (s)he threathens you, (s)he is lacking some morality,
# but you are assuming knowledge that you do not have,
# if you suppose that (s)he is hardened and has demonstrated anything
# repeatedly.
# I doubt that anyone who is confronted with a criminal has any such
# information.
#

Totally MEANINGLESS to have such information.
If I am the target of a criminal, I have the right to exercise self-defense
and not to be victimised by said criminal
    Too bad for the thug

#
# That is probably also the main reason for disliking guns.
# The principle usage of a gun would be killing something.

And if you don't have a gun when facing one of your hardened criminal,
it's
you who will be killed
And by the way, the principle of owning the gun is to be able to stop the
threat of death and/or serious injury.
It is PERFECTLY MORAL to do so
Your life and those of other innocents is worth far more than the life of
those who have no such respect

#
# Why should a criminal want to kill me, if I give him/her all of my
# money?
#

Maybe the criminal likes killing people
Maybe he likes the feeling of power of having you in his control

According the the FBI UCR (Uniform Crime Report)
The BEST DEFENSE BAR NONE is to be armed
    The WORST defense is to comply and go along
Why do you think that is ?

I will not debate that one has the right to self defence,
I only doubt whether having a gun yourself, we work in your favor.
Sure if the criminal's goal is murder, it will,
but for most people the criminal's goal will only be more money,
and having a gun mayl only increase the chances of being shot.





# Of course you can mainly using for threathening,
# but the threath would be vane if you are not prepaired to shoot.
#
# I do not know wether you ever shot at somebody,
# but it seems that it is not so very easy
# It was said in a documentary that after some of the battles in the
# American civil war guns were found in which several bullets
# had been loaded, but that were not fired.
# The conclusion was, that the soldiers had
# been loading their guns after every round, but when the order to fire
# was given, they just didn't pull the trigger . . .
#

Under the stress of battle, your ability to focus on doing complex actions
such as loading and firing a muzzleloader can be easily overcome
This is why the military train so extensively so that your actions are
more
instinctive that rationally thought out
It's what helps you stay alive
Because your body is quite capable of doing things subconsciously by rote
that has been drilled into you, when rationally you are distracted and
pissing your pants in fear

#
# That is why soldiers today are now trained to shoot,
# not in order to learn them the techique,
# but in order to learn them to actually pull the trigger!
#
# So although their are people that do not value a life as much as we
# wish, many people value life so much, they actually risk their own

Total CRAP
Soldiers who have been in battle value life probably far more than
ignorant
people who only work on theory
And the reason for that is simple
When you have risked your life and survived, you have a far greater
appreciation for it than those who have never come close to losing it

#
# This is not theory  in fact in practice most people
# never encounter a life-theathening experience.
# I haven't encountered one in 57 years.

Well that's nice
    I'm so happy for you
But it's totally meaningless and is no garantee that you will not have such
an experience in the future ?

# Does that surprise you?

Why should it ?
Most people live sheep-like lives of in cocoon
But just because you have not had a life-threatening experience yet is not
some garantee that you're slated for one tomorrow

# How many times has your life been threathened?

Once is too often

#
# It's not a rational choice though,
# some of us just are so mentally inclined.
#

Totall ignorant bull***

# Mental states are bull***?
# The Soldiers in the civil war that didn't fire their guns were
# bull***?
# "Bul***" actually is not an argument!
#

Yes indeed
That was my point
    Too bad you didn't get it

#
# When danger falls upon us, that is the time when you find out what you
# are mentally capable of. It might just be, that I would more easily
# pull the trigger then you. Despite your rational viewpoint in this.
#

Works far better if you've taken the time to practice, practice, practice,
so that you can do it automatically and not have your actions impinged by
all the raging emotions and hormones that you are awash in during that
stressfull time

#
# Have you?
#

Yes

#
# Mind you neither of us is totally rational in this discussion,
# both of us are simplyfying things for practical purposes,
# but also for bending the arguement in "our favor".
# (actually it is sometimes in our best interest to loose an argument:)

You are DEFINITELY NOT "rational" in this discussion, since you are
speaking
PURELY THEORETICALLY with ABSOLUTELY NO knowledge of the subject

#
# I have no experience with armed criminals that is true,
# have you?
#

Some

# I would be happy to learn from your experience!

That could be resumed to a few simple rules
1)    *** happens
2)    If it hasn't happened yet, is no guarantee that it won't happen
3)    Be Prepared (Thank you Lord Baden-Powell)

Now you have a perfect right to walk around in a self-congratulating haze
deluding yourself that you are immune.
Now the odds are that you may be right
But it's wiser to be prepared.- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

Thank for reacting to my post (several time even!),
however I have been called ignorant in this thread a little bit to
often,
and have already decided to leave it to the gnostics,
before I read your reply.

Peter van Velzen
January 2008
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
.

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