Re: A serious discussion about the need for more gun control

On 19 jan, 02:23, "SaPeIsMa" <SaPeI...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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On 19 jan, 01:13, "Scout" <me4g...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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On 17 jan, 11:12, "Scout" <me4g...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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On 13 jan, 23:02, "Scout" <me4g...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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"Jim Yanik" <jya...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

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On 12 jan, 18:54, Jim Bianchi <ji...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"pba...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <pba...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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m:
I do not attribute criminal violence with gun ownership.
I do believe there is some correlation between gun-ownership
and
being shot.

Huh? If you look at what you're saying, these two sentence
s are
mutually contradictory. The second sentence is totally
incorrect.
There is

(and has never been) any correlation between firearm ownership
and
'being shot' (except that, before firearms existed, there was no
danger of being shot -- stabbed, choked, beheaded, beaten,
yes --
shot no). I'll take your

use of 'being shot' as meaning 'becoming a victim of violent
crime,'
and point out that both the number of firearms existing as well
as
the estimat
ed
annual sales figures do not track in any way with the amount of
violent crime (or the possibility of 'being shot').

That part of your respons was intended for me I guess.
I meant to say that violence involves beatings, stabbings and
other
kinds of violence, for which no gun is required.

So that is the part if JIm Yanik's claim I acknowledge without
hesitation.
However for shooting a gun is required. I remember someone
arguing
some thirty years ago, that people who own a gun, statistically
have a
higher chance of getting shot.

the old Kellerman "study".
seehttp://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgaga.html

And even Kellerman now admits his study was "flawed".

Heck for that matter, those people that have dead bolts have a
statistically
higher chance as well, and those that rent instead of own their
homes
and
so
on. Interesting that he didn't bring those up.- Tekst uit
oorspronkelijk
bericht niet weergeven -

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

Were we talking about dead bolts control
or rent control?
I am a bit confused here.

Just noting that a statistical link doesn't mean anything. If you had
any
intelligence you would have understood that.- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk
bericht niet weergeven -

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

I think it matters when the mechanism behind the link is understood.

Understood? Understood by whom, and by what means do you establish this
"understanding" is true and factual. I mean it has been "understood" that
the earth is flat, the Sun goes around the Earth and space ships can't
travel outside the atmosphere.

Just because you think you "understand' it doesn't mean you really do.

Too many people come up with an incident and want (not) to change the
law because of the incidents.

Well, generally such events are a poor basis for law since they are driven
not by objective need but raw emotionalism.

However if there are many incidents, they become statistically
significant.

Like how if I check to see how many people drown against the amount of ice
cream sold I can establish a statistically significant link?

So when do we ban the sale of ice cream in order to stop people from
drowning?

And some action might become usefull.

or it might as easily be utterly useless.

Of course you are
right that statistical significance as such cannot be used as an
argument. The link(s) between the statistical entities should be
understood.

Yea, they happen to correlate. Big whoop.

I do not understand the connection between lving in a rented house and
shootings, and I suppose it will be hard to find out.
(maybe not, has somebody tried it already?)

Why am I not surprised you don't understand the connection?

However the link between owning a gun and getting shot will not be so
hard to find out. The mechanism could be
(I admit I am just going by known incidents here, not by statistics)

1. Someone gets shot with his/her own gun.
(that would be utterly impossible for non-gun owners.)

2. Somebody gets shot because another gun-carrier
thinks (s)he points a gun at him/her.
(that has in fact happened to none gun-owners
but chances for gun-owners should be higher)

You've left out a whole lot, like the fact that the person was already
being
threatened and attempted to provide for their defense. Thus their
ownership
of their gun had NOTHING to do with their being shot.

oh, but that's right, it's the victim's fault for what happens to them. I
wonder if you would care to go to a rape crisis support group and suggest
to
the ladies there that the reason they were raped was because they were
asking for it?

As mentioned the correlation between getting shot and illegal
activities (especially with regards to drugs) may be much higher.

Try orders of magnitude.

But maybe nobody really worries about those people:-)

I actually do.
I like criminals to become long living decent citizens,
rather than seeing them die.

Fine, then turn them into decent law abiding citizens. Until then, if they
die because of self defense, then it was a reasonable hazard of their
chosen
profession.

But now I am getting really off-topic.

That's putting it mildly.- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet
weergeven -

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

#
# What are you trying to say ?
# We seem to be mostly  in perfect agreement:--)
#
# Only your assumption that if somebody draws a gun in self-defense and
# is shot thereafter, the fact that the gun was there to draw in the
# first place, is irrelevant I disagree with. You can't draw a gun in
# self-defense if you don't have one.

Your premise that having a gun for self-defense will get you shot with it is
UNSUPPORTED by the data
    It's a gun-controller myth
Just like the other nonsense, such as road rage leading to a shootout, etc..,
you've spouted so far

# O can you?
#
# I never stop being surprised!
#

Yes, ignorance can do that- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

You are saying that if someone points a gun at you, and you are
drawing a gun too, that does not increase the chances of the first
person firing?
And you say I am being ignorant if I doubt your words?

I thought I was being logical,
but maybe logic does not apply to the subject.

I hope you never get into such a situation,
for I fear you will get yourself killed.

Peter van Velzen
January 2008
Amstgelveen
The Netherladns
.

Relevant Pages

  • You know how the police always cite isolated incident
    ... BBC, 17 August 2007 ... endanger life after police were called to a pub in Newquay, ... Witnesses said a man was pointing a gun through the pub window. ... A man was in a stable condition in hospital after being shot near Tulse ...
    (uk.politics.misc)
  • Re: Increased gun crime in Britain
    ... rifle and shot the bandit in the back. ... Bad guy points gun at shopkeeper and demands that he hand over the ... dishonor those that didn't have to kill their attacker in order to ... American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2002 ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Increased gun crime in Britain
    ... Carrying a gun doesn't automatically make you safe either. ... Strange that they issue them to the police and the military, guards, ... shot to death in their vehicle, by an assailant who surprised them. ... The owner of a Marietta, Okla., jewelry store shot and killed ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: How useful are guns as a self defence wepon.....
    ... I always get a kick out of gun phobics ... American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2002 ... A GUN SHOP EMPLOYEE IN ALHAMBRA, CALIFORNIA, shot and killed ... but police later apprehended two of them. ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Increased gun crime in Britain
    ... rifle and shot the bandit in the back. ... You are un happy about anyone using a gun for self defense ... dishonor those that didn't have to kill their attacker in order to ... American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2002 ...
    (talk.politics.guns)