Re: Increased gun crime in Britain

RD (The Sandman) wrote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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RD (The Sandman) wrote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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Blinky Bill wrote:
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Blinky Bill wrote:
"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in
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Trevor Wilson <trevor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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RD (The Sandman) wrote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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RD (The Sandman) wrote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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However, just for my information, is it your contention
that the
only
successful use of a gun in self defense involves the death
of the attacker?
**Nope.
Trevor, have you gone and looked at the cite I gave you?
**Yep.
And? You still wish to stick with your claim of 200 by the
FBI?
**The data supplied by the FBI pertains to the number of DGUs
resulting in the death of the perp.
Actually, no, it really doesn't. It only includes those deaths
where the decision was made on-site and the shooter not charged.
It does not include court judgements later where the decision of
the court was that the shooting was, in fact, in self defense.
Where can evidence for that claim be found? The FBI site itself
says "The Program classifies justifiable homicides separately and
limits the definition to: (1) the killing of a felon by a law
enforcement officer in the line of duty; or (2) the killing of a
felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen".

No mention of whether the shooter was charged or of self defense.
**I am sure that RD can back up his claim. He is the least
dishonest person in TPG.
I await his reply with great interest. As for a court decision of
"self defense", the USDOJ site tabulates the following reasons for
justifiable homicide - "attacked cop", "attacked citizen", "fled
or resisted", "disrupted crime" and "undetermined". ("undetermined"
puzzles me - if the reason for the homicide was undetermined, how
could it be classified as justifiable?)
**Yeah, it's all a bit mystifying. The real worry is that some DGUs,
which have resulted in the death of the perp, may be plain ole' homicide, where the 'victim' just feared for his/her life and shot
the other guy anyway. The court then accepted the pitiful excuse for
taking another person's life and let them off accordingly.
In most states in the US (mine recently became not one of them) a
claim of self defense is an affirmative one. It is up to the
defendant to prove self defense in court not the prosecutor to prove
it wasn't.


I
understand this has occured more than once in the US. I KNOW it has
happened in Australia and I, for one, am unhappy about such people
being let loose in society.
It probably doesn't happen as often as one would think.
**Perhaps. Significantly, however, there have been very few civilian-initiated DGUs in Australia. The two which stand out, that I refer to, have occured whilst the perp is running away and no longer presents any kind of physical threat.

One would not expect too many defenses in Oz to be with a firearm since you cannot get justification to purchase or to carry one for self defense. ;)

**One of those incidents occured BEFORE the 1996 gun control laws. Such is the rarity of DGUs, it is the only one I can recall. And, IMO, it doesn't qualify as a DGU, since the perp was running away. It was just plain ole' homicide.


We're getting closer to that 1.5 million figure. Only 1,599,700 to
go.
I assume that has a typo in it. You are too generous. In 2005,
there were 192 justifiable homicides by private citizens (USDOJ).
That total includes all justifiable homicides, not just those using
a firearm.
**Possibly. However, I am averaging the figure at (a generous) 200.
I am also allowing for around 100 extra DGUs where the perp was not
killed. Hence the figure of 300.
Part of the problem is the definition of a DGU. Does it mean that it
results in a death? No.
**Yes.

No, it doesn't, Trevor. Let me give you another example. You threaten me in a bar. I try to leave and you grab me. I kick your ass three ways from breakfast. You don't die, you just end up unconscious and embarrassed. Did I defend myself? Yes.

**Sorry. I was being cheeky.I answered the question as it was asked. I know exactly what you mean.


Does it need to have shot fired? No.

**Not necessarily.

Here you got it right. A DGU does not need to end in death for it to count. It counts if the perp is only wounded or runs away when he finds out you are carrying and prepared to use it if necessary.

It is in
the mind of the person doing it within reasonable standards. Let me
give you some examples:

One, I, personally, ended up following a young woman down some dark streets one night. I was simply heading for a destination close to
the one the woman was heading for and we ended up on the same
streets. She got nervous and stopped to confront me in a loud voice
designed to attract attention. After a lot of pardons, I preceded
her down the street and she probably kept an eye on me until she
reached her destination. If she had confronted me with a gun and I
ran away or excused myself would that have been a DGU? In her mind,
very possibly. In my mind and in actuality? No.
**Exactly. The paranoia of those who claim DGUs must be taken into account when examining the issue. Americans APPEAR to be extremely paranoid.

The first part of your comment I agree with....the second is, again, pure supposition on your part.

**Of course.


Two, a person gets a flat tire while traveling through a strange
area. He pulls over to change the tire. He gets approached by a
couple of seedy looking dudes who tell him they want his money and
his car keys. Instead he pulls a gun and they run away. Is that a
DGU? Probably. Will it get reported? Most likely not.
**It should be. If such an action is reported, then the police *may*
be able to arrest and remove the perps form the streets. Law
enforcement is a useful tool, *only* if criminals feel there is some
chance they will be caught. The Mafia operated this way for decades
and the Triad gangs still work this way. By not reporting crimes,
civilians merely perpetuate the problem.

While true, look at the scenario. It is a strange area....most likely you have no idea where the nearest police station is. You don't look for a phone booth as your first instinct is to get the hell out of Dodge as soon as you can. Once out, there is no longer any need to involve the police, particularly in parts of the US which frown on anyone carrying a gun. Why should you recieve more grief than the attempted muggers ever would?

**I dunno about you, but I like to see my society as a peaceful, crime-free one. I will and have stood up and testified to police about criminal acts I witness. I have no problems in doing so and, frankly, have big problems with people who do not.


Three, a woman is being raped. You stop and confront her assailant
with your firearm. He attacks you and you shoot him. He goes to the
hospital and lives. Was that a DGU? Absolutely. Did the person die
and get entered in the FBI database you refer to? No, because there
was no homicide. Was a police report filed. Yes, because a GSW was
involved.
**Which means the figures will be available on some official database.

By law, doctors and hospitals report GSWs to the police. However, there was no death so no entry into your FBI homicide data base.

**I understand that.


Other problems involve 'telescoping' or thinking an incident was much
more recent than it really was. Like something that happened two or three years ago but your remember it as last year.
**Indeed. This apears to be a significant problem with all the surveys
available to date.

And some, adjust for that.

**I've yet to see one.

FWIW, Trevor, to get a handle on the number of folks wounded during a
DGU compared to killed, one can get somewhat of an idea by comparing
the number of folks wounded by firearm to the number of people killed
by firearms. The ones involved in a DGU would be somewhere in the
same vicinity of percentages.
**That has been my contention. The usual figures imply an approximate 5:1 or 6:1 ratio of wounding to death ratio in most US shootings. It would seem appropriate to use this data in DGUs as well. That provides
us with a figure of apprximately 1,200. Allowing for 'fudge factors' which include situations where the gun is not used, a figure of 3,500 seems appropriate.

When you consider that no shots being fired occurs in over 95% of the cases that would be a factor of 19 or 1200 X 19 = 22,800 which would still be a very consrvative estimate. Remember that even the NCVS (which never even asks about DGUs) comes up with 80 - 108,000.


**given that you have no evidence fo the 95% figure, I have to question your conclusion.

Trevor Wilson

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Relevant Pages

  • Re: Increased gun crime in Britain
    ... resulting in the death of the perp. ... No mention of whether the shooter was charged or of self defense. ... homicide, where the 'victim' just feared for his/her life and shot ... Part of the problem is the definition of a DGU. ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Increased gun crime in Britain
    ... resulting in the death of the perp. ... the court was that the shooting was, in fact, in self defense. ... No mention of whether the shooter was charged or of self defense. ... homicide, where the 'victim' just feared for his/her life and shot ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Increased gun crime in Britain
    ... the court was that the shooting was, in fact, in self defense. ... No mention of whether the shooter was charged or of self defense. ... were 192 justifiable homicides by private citizens. ... Part of the problem is the definition of a DGU. ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Increased gun crime in Britain
    ... the court was that the shooting was, in fact, in self defense. ... No mention of whether the shooter was charged or of self defense. ... were 192 justifiable homicides by private citizens. ... If she had confronted me with a gun and I ran away or excused myself would that have been a DGU? ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Gun Laws save 2,500 lives in Australia / No gun laws kills 15,000 lives in USA PER ANNUM
    ... Please re-phrase it in a manner in which I can ... to be wounded or killed for it to be a DGU? ... List the conditions that determines if the perp must be wounded ... LOL You want me to post some data when I ask you a question? ...
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