Re: Increased gun crime in Britain

RD (The Sandman) wrote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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Blinky Bill wrote:
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Blinky Bill wrote:
"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in
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Trevor Wilson <trevor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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RD (The Sandman) wrote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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RD (The Sandman) wrote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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However, just for my information, is it your contention that
the
only
successful use of a gun in self defense involves the death
of the attacker?
**Nope.
Trevor, have you gone and looked at the cite I gave you?
**Yep.
And? You still wish to stick with your claim of 200 by the FBI?
**The data supplied by the FBI pertains to the number of DGUs
resulting in the death of the perp.
Actually, no, it really doesn't. It only includes those deaths
where the decision was made on-site and the shooter not charged. It does not include court judgements later where the decision of
the court was that the shooting was, in fact, in self defense.
Where can evidence for that claim be found? The FBI site itself
says "The Program classifies justifiable homicides separately and
limits the definition to: (1) the killing of a felon by a law
enforcement officer in the line of duty; or (2) the killing of a
felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen".

No mention of whether the shooter was charged or of self defense.
**I am sure that RD can back up his claim. He is the least dishonest
person in TPG.
I await his reply with great interest. As for a court decision of
"self defense", the USDOJ site tabulates the following reasons for
justifiable homicide - "attacked cop", "attacked citizen", "fled or
resisted", "disrupted crime" and "undetermined". ("undetermined"
puzzles me - if the reason for the homicide was undetermined, how
could it be classified as justifiable?)
**Yeah, it's all a bit mystifying. The real worry is that some DGUs, which have resulted in the death of the perp, may be plain ole' homicide, where the 'victim' just feared for his/her life and shot the
other guy anyway. The court then accepted the pitiful excuse for
taking another person's life and let them off accordingly.

In most states in the US (mine recently became not one of them) a claim of self defense is an affirmative one. It is up to the defendant to prove self defense in court not the prosecutor to prove it wasn't.




I
understand this has occured more than once in the US. I KNOW it has
happened in Australia and I, for one, am unhappy about such people
being let loose in society.

It probably doesn't happen as often as one would think.

**Perhaps. Significantly, however, there have been very few civilian-initiated DGUs in Australia. The two which stand out, that I refer to, have occured whilst the perp is running away and no longer presents any kind of physical threat.



We're getting closer to that 1.5 million figure. Only 1,599,700 to
go.
I assume that has a typo in it. You are too generous. In 2005, there
were 192 justifiable homicides by private citizens (USDOJ). That
total includes all justifiable homicides, not just those using a
firearm.
**Possibly. However, I am averaging the figure at (a generous) 200. I
am also allowing for around 100 extra DGUs where the perp was not
killed. Hence the figure of 300.

Part of the problem is the definition of a DGU. Does it mean that it results in a death? No.

**Yes.

Does it need to have shot fired? No.

**Not necessarily.


It is in
the mind of the person doing it within reasonable standards. Let me give you some examples:

One, I, personally, ended up following a young woman down some dark streets one night. I was simply heading for a destination close to the one the woman was heading for and we ended up on the same streets. She got nervous and stopped to confront me in a loud voice designed to attract attention. After a lot of pardons, I preceded her down the street and she probably kept an eye on me until she reached her destination. If she had confronted me with a gun and I ran away or excused myself would that have been a DGU? In her mind, very possibly. In my mind and in actuality? No.

**Exactly. The paranoia of those who claim DGUs must be taken into account when examining the issue. Americans APPEAR to be extremely paranoid.


Two, a person gets a flat tire while traveling through a strange area. He pulls over to change the tire. He gets approached by a couple of seedy looking dudes who tell him they want his money and his car keys. Instead he pulls a gun and they run away. Is that a DGU? Probably. Will it get reported? Most likely not.

**It should be. If such an action is reported, then the police *may* be able to arrest and remove the perps form the streets. Law enforcement is a useful tool, *only* if criminals feel there is some chance they will be caught. The Mafia operated this way for decades and the Triad gangs still work this way. By not reporting crimes, civilians merely perpetuate the problem.


Three, a woman is being raped. You stop and confront her assailant with your firearm. He attacks you and you shoot him. He goes to the hospital and lives. Was that a DGU? Absolutely. Did the person die and get entered in the FBI database you refer to? No, because there was no homicide. Was a police report filed. Yes, because a GSW was involved.

**Which means the figures will be available on some official database.


Other problems involve 'telescoping' or thinking an incident was much more recent than it really was. Like something that happened two or three years ago but your remember it as last year.

**Indeed. This apears to be a significant problem with all the surveys available to date.


FWIW, Trevor, to get a handle on the number of folks wounded during a DGU compared to killed, one can get somewhat of an idea by comparing the number of folks wounded by firearm to the number of people killed by firearms. The ones involved in a DGU would be somewhere in the same vicinity of percentages.

**That has been my contention. The usual figures imply an approximate 5:1 or 6:1 ratio of wounding to death ratio in most US shootings. It would seem appropriate to use this data in DGUs as well. That provides us with a figure of apprximately 1,200. Allowing for 'fudge factors' which include situations where the gun is not used, a figure of 3,500 seems appropriate.

Trevor Wilson


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  • Re: Increased gun crime in Britain
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