Re: Handgun Murder Statistics


"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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<jfma@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:26:30 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
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<jfma@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:48:31 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
<trevor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


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No it is entirely appropriate to show people
that
such tacts as this
propaganda are correct and that what you EXPECT
to
see is not always
what the data show.

Firearms prevent more deaths by the law-abiding
than
they cause.

**No, they do not. What's more, there is no hard
evidence to show that
what you say is the case. In fact, the only HARD
evidence we have is that
guns are implicated in saving around 200
civilians
each year in the US.
Beyond that, we only have very rubbery wild
estimates.

The evidence is very strong that they save lives
in
a
number of areas and
there

**Nope. None at all.

Sure there is. You just refuse to accept it
because
you
don't like
it.

**Sure I accept it. There are approximately 200 DGUs
in
the US each year.

So once again we see Trevor asserting that the only
measure of DGU's are dead bodies.

**Not so. Previous posters (yourself included) have
chided
me for provideing figures which cannot be backed by
hard
data. I am, therefore, using the only hard data
available.

Ok, so present for me the source from which you got
this
figure of 200

**Sure. It is the FBI stats for justifiable homicides.

So your source for your claim is one which ONLY counts
dead
bodies.

**Nope. My source is the only source which appears to
provide
accurate data. As you have consistently demanded from me.


So when you said you don't, you lied to me, again.

and
please insure that figure does NOT include only dead
bodies,
otherwise your denial is false and yet another lie.

**Nope. It is the ONLY data available. If you have some
alternate data, then present it.

I don't have to in order to show that you only count dead
bodies.

**Translation: Scout: "I have no data."

That's right Trevor, you have no data.

**I suggest you learn some grammar.


This very
cite and your comments show that is your own current
measure
of DGU. Dead bodies.

**Nope. That is what YOU and others have consistently
demanded
of me.

And yet this is the only data you can present.

**That is all the data ANYONE can present.

Why?

**I hvae no idea. YOU certainly don't seem able to supply any
extra
data.

Because it conforms to your bias and supports your agenda?

**Nope. If you can provide some actual data, then do so.

I mean the
UCR is hardly the place to find any meaningful data on DGU
since
it's not even a subject the UCR makes any effort to directly
deal
with or obtain any meaningful data. Yet it seems to be the
one
and
only source of data you accept, and it counts only dead
bodies.

**Nope. It is the ONLY source of data I can locate. Can you
supply
some alternate data sources?



YOU certainly cannot present anything else.

Already have Trevor, but since you didn't like it you
declared
it
invalid and ignored it. Typical of you.

**You have NOT supplied any other sources of data.


Here you go, DGUs in the US annually are certainly in the
MILLIONS:

Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use
of
Firearms
by Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/165476.pdf

Of coure there is Cook and Ludwig who HATE the fact that even
their
own survey found 4.5 MILLION annual DGUs (we'll ignore there 23
million number.):

**Except that a survey is not hard data. It is an extrapolation
of
what people told a bunch of researchers.

And yet you find it perfectly acceptable to present surveys when
they
agree with your agenda.

**Nope. I no longer post results of surveys. I just post data. I
expect
nothing less from you.

Fine and when you start making with the data for all the requests
put
to
you over the last month, then you can expect me to post the data I
have.
Until then you are in no position to demand much of anything
regarding
supplying data.

**Your inability to supply data to back up your case is duly noted.

Since I already have

**Wrong. You have not.


Yes he has

**Then why don't YOU provide the cite?

I have already shown that your "close approximation" isn't close
at all and I have provided newspaper articles that have police reports
indicated and you have projected your "close approximation" upwards by
between 36 and 42%. Your "close approximation" isn't close at all and
may be nothing but a drop in a 500 gallon tank.


**OK. So you can't provide this mythical cite either. Seems hardly
surprising to me.

He didn't say he couldn't nor did he say he could. Though he has already
supplied you with hard data which you didn't count before so clearly he has
provide you with something. Not that it matters, the only issue is the fact
that YOU don't have adequate support for your assertion and it has already
been shown to be inaccurate to a rather extensive degree. So much for your
claim of "hard data".


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Handgun Murder Statistics
    ... measure of DGU's are dead bodies. ... own survey found 4.5 MILLION annual DGUs (we'll ignore there 23 ... I have already shown that your "close approximation" isn't close ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Handgun Murder Statistics
    ... measure of DGU's are dead bodies. ... own survey found 4.5 MILLION annual DGUs (we'll ignore there 23 ... supplying data. ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Handgun Murder Statistics
    ... measure of DGU's are dead bodies. ... So your source for your claim is one which ONLY counts dead ... own survey found 4.5 MILLION annual DGUs (we'll ignore there 23 ... regarding supplying data. ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Someone Elses is Responsible
    ... > the bodies of the victims floating around the city. ... > for the dead that is a defining feature of civilisation. ... Shrugging of shoulders seemed to be the response, ... So I'm just reading here and the newspaper, listening to the radio ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)
  • Re: Weekend survey on the RFC site: I know we can cook... but can we jam?!
    ... Chatty Cathy wrote: ... Vote now! ... This survey was entirely Andy's idea;) ...
    (rec.food.cooking)