Re: Why I <choke> have some grudging respect for Trevor Wilson and believe the there is hope.

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:24:35 +1100, Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Jim Bianchi" <jimbo@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:slrnevue0n.f0p.jimbo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:20:11 +1100, Trevor Wilson wrote:
**Nope. Swimming pools require extensive and expensive local government
approvals. And, as I stated before, they require expensive and extensive
support systems.

Like I said, rigorous and expensive regulations aside, a swimming
pool can be owned in Australia. As opposed to owning a semi-automatic
firearm for defensive purposes.

**Correct. OTOH, pools are rarely used in the commission of homicides.
Firearms have been and still are a common method of committing homicide.
Additionally, firearms are hardly ever effective for defensive purposes.

They're NOT (hardly ever effective)? Of course! <smacking myself on
the forehead> I keep forgetting you Aussies are different..

**Incorrect. The Australian government has not collected all the guns.
In fact, gun ownership is legal in Australia, contrary to what you
apparently believe.

For what pupose is firearm ownership legal in Australia?

**Taret shooting, collecting, hunting, vermin extermination.

Can someone living in Sydney, say, legally buy one for defensive
purposes?

**Nope.

**Nope. Australians see that secondary gun sales were a significant
problem and have done something about it.

By conforming their lives to what someone *might* do (sell their gun to a
criminal).

**Nope. By conforming their lives to what someone DID do.

Like I said, By conforming their lives to their fear of what someone
*might* do in the future. Taking action against what someone DID do would be
a matter of arresting, charging, convicting, and punishing the bloke. While
that may well be done, your country has gone a step further by passing laws
that assume everyman *will be* guilty of murder or selling his gun, if they
are allowed unincumbered possession of firearms.

Seems to me what they've done is to adjust their lifestyle and the laws
they live under to conform to what criminals do, as opposed to forcing
criminals to adjust their own lifestyle.

**How so?

By legislating the hoops one must jump through in order to purchase and
possess a firearm (as long as it's not for defensive purposes).

**Oh well. No major loss.

Except to one who is the victim of an inimical encounter with a
criminal that may've been avoided or successfully defended against if there
were a firearm (or the threat of a firearm) present.

For a criminal to obtain a gun, they must take far more risky and
expensive options than simply using a 'straw purchase' or buying a
second hand gun. Even from a friend.

I see. And you feel that a person who'd rob, rape, or murder will be
deterred by the threat of prosecution for violating a mere 'gun law?'

**That would depend on the circumstances. Robbery with a firearm
attracts a more severe penalty than robbery without one. The incidence

Yet, you feel that a person who'd rob or murder will be deterred by
the threat of prosecution for violating a mere 'gun law?' You guys are not
only weird, you're incurably naive.

of rape, committed via the use of a firearm, is so rare in Australia,
that it doesn't make the stats. Murder is usually a crime which entails
a bunch of factors. The weapon is one of those factors.

Sure. The weapon is a factor. It is not much of a contributing factor at
all -- in the sense that "the gun made me do it."

**Not necessarily.

Whoa! Surely you don't mean that in Australia your guns compel you
to do evil things using them? Remind me to never buy a firearm marked "Made
in Australia."

When examining the stats, we can see that the rate of violent assault is
very similar in Australia and the US. However, when we examine the
homicide rate, we can see that the figure in the US is 3 times the rate
that it is in Australia. Homicides, committed via the use of guns, is TEN
times the rate that it is in Australia. Guns are used in around 60% of
homicides in the US, whilst they are used in around 15% of homicides in
Australia. Given the effectiveness, the impersonal nature of the killing
and the concealability of firearms, it is possible that it is, indeed, the
prescence of guns (notably: Handguns) which skew the US figures much
higher than Australian ones.

May I point out that the vast majority of these homicides occur in
cities that also have quite strict guncontrol. Also that '60% of homicides
using a firearm' represents a LOT less than 1% of all firearms that will
ever be used in a crime of violence.

As is shown by the incidence of violent crime in Australia that does not
involve a firearm.

**Indeed. Violent crime is about the same as it is in the US. Thise
clearly invalidates the belief that civilians carrying guns is in any way
helpful.

It also invalidates the belief that civilians possessing (and
sometimes carrying) guns is in any way detrimental (or leads to inimical
use).

To say otherwise is to admit to a form of animism. If you maintain that
what makes it a contributing factor is the guilty guy saying, "I had a
gun, so I did it," only drives home the point made below about how
Aussies are quite different. Must be the air..

**Nope. Guns simply make it easy for violent people to make thier violent
intent more deadly.

While true, they also provide a way for those preyed upon to defend
themselves.

As an example, Our FBI has stated that fewer than 1% of firearms will
ever be used in a crime. Guncontrol will actively penalise everyone in
order to prevent less than 1% of crime (and, given that a knife or a lead
pipe will suffice for a LOT of crime, that 'less than 1% of crime' figure
is WAY inflated).

**What percentage of automobiles are involved in fatal accidents? Do all
drivers need to conform to the same laws, despite the miniscule number
actually involved in fatal accidents?

No idea about percentages, the answer to your second question is
'yes.' Yet in spite of the rather large number of fatalities and injuries,
property damage and lost time caused by their misuse, there is nothing in
any of these laws that is in any way preemptive about the use or possession
of a motor vehicle. You can do anything you want with one until (and unless)
you are pulled over. Only then (if you've broken a law) will a penalty be
assessed against you.

As I said, our FBI has stated that fewer than 1% of firearms will
ever be used in a crime. Guncontrol will actively penalise everyone in order
to prevent less than 1% of crime (and, given that a knife or a lead pipe
will suffice for a LOT of crime, that 'less than 1% of crime' figure is WAY
inflated). That's all crime where a firearm would've been used or merely
displayed in order to intimidate.

Now that's in the U.S. I suspect that similar can be said about most
other places on this planet -- except Australia.

**NOpe. YOU seem to forget that Australian gun control laws are pretty
similar to those in all the other Western, developed nations, except one -
The USA.

There you go again with the "western, developed nations."
Interesting thought: Might it be that the 'undeveloped nations' with such
high rates of criminal activity in spite of also having extremely strict
guncontrol are third world nations *in part* BECAUSE they have strict
guncontrol? I'm refering to the mindset such legislative bushwa instills
into those who must live under those systems.

Those that rise to power think of those under them as ..well, serfs
(for want of a better term), and the 'serfs' think of themselves as totally
defenseless against any kind of assault at all except for their own physical
strength (which, of course, they ARE). Since this has always been that way,
it's taken for granted that it WILL always be that way. And guess what? It
IS always that way, for as EVERYONE KNOWS, guns are the root of all evil in
the world -- so that's why only the polititians have them and why the serfs
(and the Australians) can't be *trusted* with them.

Those serfs are the people who, in spite of their nations' being
possessed of vast wealth and resources, etc, continue to be stepped on by
anyone who comes along including the polititians who rise from their own
ranks and their nations continue to be dismissed as just another 3rd world
shithole.

Well, it's only a thought and I'm NOT saying it's the whole answer.
I'm also not saying that arming everyman in a given 3rd world nation would
help. I'm merely putting the thought that extreme, preemptive guncontrol
laws may tend to affect the way people think about themselves and thus
affect the ..ah, status, their nation has. I'd like yours (and anyone elses)
comments.

--
jimbo@xxxxxxxxx

"There are only 10 kinds of people in the world;
those who understand binary, and those who don't."

.

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