Re: Lets get it on evolution vs creation
- From: John Harshman <jharshman@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 14:06:10 -0800
1. I use a new post every time because I am one talking to several and
will be doing that for the remainder of this discussion.
Please stop. It's rude. It makes real discussions difficult.
2. I could care less about your concern for my failure to use
paragraphs to your approval. We are discussing evolution verses the
Bible and creation which is my agenda and I believe the agenda of most
on this site.
Nevertheless, if you have any concern for your readers (and as a good Christian, shouldn't you?), you need to make your prose readable, and that requires paragraphs. Thanks for putting them in.
3. I would ask a favor of you please stop copping my posts just answer
and post your thoughts and position it takes too much time and space
to read my posts over and over.
Just read the new parts. This too is part of usenet etiquette. There's a reason for it. Again, your failure to quote makes your post less readable for other people. Please have some consideration.
4. What does it actually matter to the current life of anyone whether
God created you or you evolved from a primordial organism? Either way
you get to hug your dog and either way you still have to go grocery
Was that intended to be an argument? The truth matters to me, even if it doesn't affect my daily life. In fact evolution does have some effect on your daily life (especially evolution of microorganisms), but even if it didn't, knowledge would be important.
Good question very bad statement as you greatly err in not knowing the
Who is "you"? We need some context here. That's one reason you're supposed to reply directly to posts rather than starting your own threads every time. There are reasons for these rules.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in
himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he
believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Making a liar out of your creator and redeemer is not a wise thing to
do! I am glad you hug your dog and yes we all need our groceries. Even
the very first life form needed his groceries (Metaphor). That is why
I as the question how did the first evolving life form sustain itself?
It too needed its groceries (metaphor) to survive. I doubt many
evolutionists have given that much intelligent thought as they spend
so much time trying to imagine a workable idea of how living life
emerged from non life! God’s word reveals to us each man as a living
soul with an eternal destiny!
How do you know that's true?
Lu 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and
lose himself, or be cast away?
Why don't you tell us what your interpretation of the bible is then,
and what physical evidence you feel supports it? Creationists seldom
That seems to be a quote from someone else, but it's hard to tell since you provide no clues. That's why quoting (the way I'm doing to your post) is another rule. It helps the reader figure out what's going on.
Gladly I believe the Bible is the prophetic, historic, and scientific
revelation of the creator God. The Bible is God’s revelation of
himself to all mankind revealing his historical interaction with his
creation. The Bible reveals God’s desire to bring his creation back
into fellowship with him through the propitiation of the shed blood of
That isn't the requested evidence. You have merely stated your beliefs. The question is why anyone should believe that your beliefs are correct.
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him
to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be
things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime
alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he
reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you
holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Let us be honest if evolution is factual there is no Biblical creator
God. I suppose theirs might be some star wars force of cosmic
conscience but frankly who cares? We have our lives to live and a non
personal cosmic conscience does not mean much! Now if the Bible is
true, and a man postulates evolution through his imagination to avoid
God’s morale authority over him then he is alienated from his creator
and redeemer. That is not good for his future!
Creationists seem to be devoted to false dichotomies, and that's one right there. Unless the bible is literally true, there is no god? Many Christians, perhaps even a majority, accept both the god of Abraham and evolution. That means that parts of the bible are not literally true. So? Where does it say you have to accept the literal truth of the entire bible in order to be a Christian?
By the way, "it would be nice if god existed" is not itself an argument for the existence of god.
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the
life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the
blindness of their heart:
Denial of reality is very common propensity of mankind. Men understand
that we all eventually die, yet we believe it will never happen to us,
but it does and if we die un-reconciled to our creator and redeemer
through our imagination that is not good!
Oddly enough, you are the person denying that we die; atheists believe that everyone does die. None of that is relevant to evolution, however.
Jer 16:12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye
walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may
not hearken unto me: Jer 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but
we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the
imagination of his evil heart.
Don't toss out that garbage if you don't want to discuss it. I have
proof that the bible is wrong and God doesn't exist, but let's not go
there until you show precise evidence of something microscopic that
happened 4 billion years ago.
That seems to be a quote from someone else again. Please, please learn how to post properly. You currently seem proud of defying all the rules. But the rules have a purpose, which is to make communication possible. Do you want communication? Then you would be wise to follow the rules.
Excuse me I am the creationist I have no proof that something
microscopic happened 4 billion years ago that is your imagination not
mine. I asked the evolutionist hear to produce their theory as to how
life might have sustained itself once it came into existence. I was
seeking the details to this theory as to how the imagined life form
digested, absorbed or hoe it received its nutrition from an
environment that would most likely not have nutrients. Did evolution
provide for the basic needs of its prodigy as the creator God did
placing his creation of an adult in a garden to meet his creations
needs. Ge 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and
there he put the man whom he had formed.
Take your best shot give me your proof that the Bible is not true!
Sure. The bible says that all the stars were created on the 4th day of a week that happened about 6000 years ago. Yet we can see stars that are billions of light years away from us. That would not be possible if they were created only 6000 years ago; in that case we should be unable to see anything farther from us than 6000 light years. Therefore at least that part of the bible is untrue.
But do you have any evidence that anything in Genesis 1 or 2 is true?
Ro 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the
faith of God without effect?
How do you know if something has not been messing with your mind?
How do *you* know? Don't go there; it leads to nihilism.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them
which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Until you as evolutionist tell me what you imagined happened either in
the formation of life or in the sustaining of life in clear simple
details not referencing books you probably have never read yourself,
how can I begin a debate with you!
Again, you need to ask about something we actually know about, rather than something about which we have very little information.
Isa 41:21 Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong
reasons, saith the King of Jacob.
You obviously do not understand the process of discovery and
adversarial debate or you are simply afraid that I can refute your
position. Or are you simply incapable of defending your position
whatever it might be as you have not told me yet.
You're right. I don't think anyone can say with assurance what the earliest life did to get through the day. But that hardly means the bible is true, and it hardly makes the Garden of Eden a worthy alternative. That, at least, is easy to refute. For starters, the universe is billions of years old. So is the earth, though not as many billions. So is life, though not quite as many as even the earth. We may not know much about the earliest life, but we know plenty about life in the last 3 billon years, not just from fossils but also from the clues left in the genomes of living species. If you want to start a real debate, challenge some aspect of science that is actually well known.
Pr 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart
may discover itself.
I need from you the, who, what, when, where and why of evolutionary
imagination to debate it with you, no one can debate a ghost!
Who: That would be the first living organism and some simple details
Nobody knows. (Though, as you have been told many times already, there was no "first living organism".)
What: What caused it to become living, what sustained its life until
it could progress up the evolutionary process!
When: I know you will be very ambiguous hear but try to keep it in a
few billion years!
Where: Where did the event take place on the land, sea, air, Space,
choose one and give some simple details.
Why: Why did this event take place was there a reason or was this
My position is that evolution is simply the imagination of the mind
of the theorist; there are no demonstrable facts to support the
theory. The obvious fact of our existence will be found in the word
of God and should be understood by mankind as it is our true reality.
What evidence do you have that the bible is the word of god, and that you properly interpret that word, and that this interpretation corresponds to reality?
Ec 3:11 ¶ He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath
set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work
that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
I have complete faith in the word of God and the Bible as it is
historically accurate, it is scientifically accurate and prophetically
accurate where it covers such details and is secure resting place for
my faith in it.
That's your assertion. Can you provide evidence? Start with the starlight thing, which would seem to contradict your claims.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence
of things not seen.
Who: Scripturally first life on earth was a man named Adam!
That is clearly not true, as we have fossils of bacteria that are at least 3.2 billion years old, yet human fossils, depending on how you define the word "human", are at most a thousandth of that age. Further, humans are deeply nested within the tree of life as the sister group of chimpanzees, a position very, very far from the root of the tree.
Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living
What: God cause man and the universe to come into existence by his
spoken word and breath!
Do you have evidence for this claim? Certainly the universe is much, much older than humans.
Ge 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Where: Ge 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and
there he put the man whom he had formed.
Unfortunately, the earliest human fossils come from Africa, and genetics also shows our ancestry to be African.
When not very long ago as it was created in full age:
If you want to propose that all the evidence we have for an old earth and universe was created that way, you are proposing omphalism. The problem with omphalism is that it's both irrefutable and meaningless. If the world could have been created 6000 years ago with the appearance of being billions of years old, it's equally reasonable to claim that it was created last Tuesday with the same appearance. It also accuses god of being deceptive, which most people wouldn't like.
Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the
day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Why: God formed the earth to be inhabited!
Mark Twain had a good take on this:
"Man has been here 32,000 years. That it took a hundred million years to prepare the world for him is proof that that is what it was done for. I suppose it is. I dunno. If the Eiffel tower were now representing the world's age, the skin of paint on the pinnacle-knob at its summit would represent man's share of that age; & anybody would perceive that that skin was what the tower was built for. I reckon they would. I dunno."
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God
himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he
created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD;
and there is none else.
To create an everlasting kingdom filled with life!
How did that work out?
Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting
salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
In all honestly it is impossible to prove origins conclusively at
this time with our limited knowledge and facts. There was no person at
the creation to document for us a body of knowledge that was gathered
and correlated from observable phenomena that could be demonstrated to
be factual. There should however be a preponderance of the evidence
from scientific laws and demonstrable evidence to give a greater
credence as to how the universe and life came into existence!
I'm afraid you grossly misunderstand science. Eyewitness testimony isn't required. In fact it's been shown in criminal investigations that eyewitness testimony is much less reliable than circumstantial evidence. And we do know a great deal of the history of the universe, based on the traces that history has left in the present. It really doesn't match Genesis very well. We can discuss that, if you like.
Pr 26:10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool,
and rewardeth transgressors.
The universe has four basic possibilities for its existence!
1. It came from nothing accidentally. (Punctuated equilibrium)
2. It came from nothing Supernaturally (My Position divine creation)
3. It has always been hear. Uniformitarianism
4. It is not here: it is an illusion. The insane asylum of ghosts
Actually, punctuated equilibrium has nothing whatsoever to do with the origin of the universe. You are confused. Nor is uniformitarianism what you imagine it to be.
Nor, most importantly, does evolution have anything at all to do with the origin of the universe. If you want to talk about the universe, you need a physicist. If you want to talk about evolution, you need a biologist. Which do you want to talk about?
Now can we get the debate going what do you believe that should
convince me to believe in evolution? How did first life arise and
sustain itself? Please keep it simple as I do not have the great
intellectual capacity as you might have since I will be outnumbered
never the less I have my position and a firm belief. What do you
have? Where to you see a contradiction in my Bible with factual
demonstrable scientific evidence?
Start with the age of the stars. If you want instead to talk about evolution, how about starting with the origins of humans, not of the first life? We know a great deal about the former, not much about the latter.
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