Re: "Trees"

On Nov 25, 5:03 pm, Ernest Major <{$t...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In message
<uranium-a884bd1f-bcef-437d-b243-cb20af17c...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
m>, UC <uraniumcommit...@xxxxxxxxx> writes



On Nov 25, 4:28 pm, r norman <r_s_nor...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:03:03 -0800 (PST), UC

<uraniumcommit...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Nov 25, 2:55 pm, Ernest Major <{$t...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In message
<uranium-c4a561e4-d6f1-4884-9910-563eaacaa...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>, UC <uraniumcommit...@xxxxxxxxx> writes

On Nov 25, 2:17 pm, r norman <r_s_nor...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:43:03 -0700, Hatunen <hatu...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:05:35 -0600, r norman
<r_s_nor...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:44:34 -0700, Hatunen <hatu...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:30:38 -0600, r norman
<r_s_nor...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:55:59 -0700, Hatunen
<hatu...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
In these parts large areas of saguaro (or sometimes, if tall
enough, prickly pear or cholla) are called "cactus forests".

Of course. I'll be in Tucson myself in another week where I live
until May. I love to wander around in the forests of
columnar cacti
found throughout the Sonoran desert. It is just that some

the term strange, just as they think of Joshua Trees and

very strange plant forms.

Joshua trees don't look particulary strange to me, but boojums
sure do. But neither is found in southern Arizona save for the
ones deliberately planted.

I seem to recall Joshua trees on Route US 93 northwest of Wickenburg,
probably towards Wikieup.

That area, in northwesternish Arizona is consdered the boundary
between the Mojave Desert, characterized by Joshua trees, and the
Sonoran Desert, characterized by saguaros. it is the only area
where Joshuas and saquaros can be seen tgether.

And I did specify "Sonoran desert" in order to include Boojums.

Certainly teh boojums in the small area of Baja California where
they are found is not teh Sonoran Desert. Whether the small stand
on the opposing eastern shore of the Sea of Cortez is part of the
Sonoran Desert might be arguable. Maps of the Sonoran Desert
seem to include that area, but teh also include areas such as the
top of Mt Lemmon.

The Tohono Chul plant sale in the spring has them
available but my wife wouldn't let me get one for our back yard.
Especially when small, they really are quite ugly things.

Whatever the deserts may be called, I love them all. I can't wait to
get back although being with my two grandchildren in San Antonio for
Thanksgiving does take precedence. My daughter and son-in-law are OK,
too.

Are all pines firs, all firs pines, or are they distinct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir

You've managed to find a false trichotomy.

You might have realised by now that vernacular terms for organisms
commonly don't have unambiguous referents. In this case you can find
broader uses for both words than the single genus. An umbrella pine or a
Norfolk Island pine is not a pine (in the narrow sense); a Douglas fir
or a Baltic fir is not a fir (in the narrow sense). A Baltic fir is
actually a pine (it's an alternative and rather archaic name for Scots
Pine, mostly restricted to the timber trade). Both words are loosely
used for a wide range of conifers - perhaps pine for those with needles,
rather than scale-leaves, and fir for the subset with a conical habit.
--
alias Ernest Major

Since I know next to nothing about "trees".....

There is nothing at all wrong about knowing nothing, or next to
nothing, about a particular subject. What is strange is seeming to
take an interest in the subject but not going out to learn something
about it. There are innumerable books in the libraries and bookstores
about learning to identify trees and plants in general. And there are
innumerable web sites devoted to teaching how to identify trees and
plants in general.

The way to identify plants is to use a "key", sometimes called a
dichotomous key. This is a numbered series of questions, each with a
yes/no answer. Each answer directs you to another numbered question
until you have identified the plant in question. Don't follow the
questions is linear order -- 1, 2, 3,... Do follow the trail of
numbers. See, for example,
http://uptreeid.com/Key1.htm
for a key to the conifers. This only identifies the trees of
Michigan's upper peninsula, so it is very limited but it gives you the
idea.

Are the leaves (needles) long, thin, and in bundles or are they single
or or they like scales?

If in bundles, you have some sort of pine tree.

If single, are they flat or are they square or round.

If flat, you have a yew or hemlock or fir or ... depending on other
questions.

If square you have a spruce or ... depending on other questions.

Easy mnemonic: Fir is flat and flexible, spruce is square and stiff.

If scaly you have a cedar or juniper or ....

All these are very different groups of plants in the same way that
maples and oaks are different groups of plants.

You have already been told that there are individual plants that seem
to defy the rules and look superficially like others that are
unrelated. That is because the differences used to distinguish
species are often subtle features of the reproductive structures, not
the easily seen features used in popular keys.

The same thing applies to animals. Looking at superficial
similarities in shape can be very misleading at understanding
biological relationships. And common names are often very deceiving.
The American "robin" was named because it has a red breast like the
European robin, even though they are not closely related at all.

I was more interested in the evolution of trees as groups....

Then start at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryophytaand work your
way down. (And if you're interested in the evolution of trees as groups
why are you still stuck on vernacular names?)
--
alias Ernest Major

Not "stuck on" vernacular names, just curious why there is such poor
vocabulary...

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: "Trees"
    ... just as they think of Joshua Trees and Boojum's as ... Norfolk Island pine is not a pine; a Douglas fir ... about learning to identify trees and plants in general. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: "Trees"
    ... just as they think of Joshua Trees and Boojum's as ... Norfolk Island pine is not a pine; a Douglas fir ... about learning to identify trees and plants in general. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: "Trees"
    ... >>I seem to recall Joshua trees on Route US 93 northwest of Wickenburg, ... >Sonoran Desert, characterized by saguaros. ... An umbrella pine or a Norfolk Island pine is not a pine; a Douglas fir or a Baltic fir is not a fir. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: "Trees"
    ... >> Norfolk Island pine is not a pine; ... >> or a Baltic fir is not a fir. ... about learning to identify trees and plants in general. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: "Trees"
    ... just as they think of Joshua Trees and Boojum's as ... Sonoran Desert, characterized by saguaros. ... Norfolk Island pine is not a pine; ... about learning to identify trees and plants in general. ...
    (talk.origins)