Re: did man walk on the moon...and creationism.

Burkhard <b.schafer@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

On 3 Aug, 22:45, nos...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
Gregory A Greenman <s...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:



On Sun, 2 Aug 2009 21:47:27 +0200, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Gregory A Greenman <s...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 10:47:43 +0200, J. J. Lodder wrote:
J.J. O'Shea <try.not...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:08:23 -0400, J. J. Lodder wrote
(in article <1j3qbwv.at0uxq11d3t...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>):

J.J. O'Shea <try.not...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:46:39 -0400, J. J. Lodder wrote
(in article <1j3q6ob.7psxfs14gwz...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>):

I understand you admit defeat on the issue
of Von Braun being an SS officer with the power
to give orders to those running Mittelwerk?

You understand incorrectly. A sturmbanfuhrer could have ordered
the guards to stand aside... if he had wanted to.

A real one, perhaps. (but see below)
Not a merely honorary one like Von Braun.

I'm no expert on this subject, but I'm thinking that if WvB saw a
guard beating a worker and he told the guard to stop, the guard
would have complied whether WvB was a real officer, an honorary
officer or just a plain civilian.

Of course not. The guard would ask his superior what to do.
If not, he would have an enraged superior confronting him
with: who do you think is giving orders around here?

How would the guard ask his superior? Would he leave his post to go
ask?

Possibly.
A soldier who receives conflicting orders
from different superiors is placed in a very difficult position.
He must find some way out.
Another way to stall is to isist upon written orders.

Or, were the superiors always standing right next to the guards?

Of course not.
Then what do you need underlings for?

I'm sure the guards knew that WvB
was a pretty important rocket scientist and that his work was the
whole reason they were there. The more important question, as far
as I am concerned, is would it have made any difference? I suspect
that if WvB had told a guard to stop, that as soon as a higher
ranking Nazi found out, he would have shot the worker, told the
guards to ignore any pleas for mercy for workers from WvB and told
WvB to mind his own business. Further, WvB would likely have been
labeled a Jew-lover.

The whole thing is purely fictional.

What's fictional?

The whole hypothetical story above.

That WvB was involved to some degree in the use
of slave labor? That many of these slaves were beaten and killed?
That WvB apparently did nothing to prevent or at least mitigate
this?

That's not what is written above.
And it is not under dispute.
Von Braun himself made no attempt to deny being aware of it.



Now, if I'm right, does this exonerate WvB? Well, if that's the
extent of his involvement in the mistreatment of prisoners, just
that he knew of it, even if by directly witnessing it, I think it
does. On the other hand, if he was complicit, then that's a
different matter. I don't know if he was or wasn't.

I've seen no evidence that Von Braun was responsible
for running the production facilities.
He had other, and more important tasks,

"On August 15, 1944, von Braun wrote a letter to Albin Sawatzki,
manager of the V-2 production, admitting that he personally picked
labor slaves from the Buchenwald concentration camp, who, he
admitted 25 years later in an interview, had been in a 'pitiful
shape'."

Considering conditions at Buchenwald
he may well have been doing them a relative favour,

Not according to the survivors, who considered it worse than
Buchenwald. see
Béon Yves, La planète Dora. Paris Le Seuil 1985 p. 89



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun

Apparently he had at least some involvement with the production
side of the operation.

I've seen it mentioned, but not the letter itself.
Have you?

Jan

You'll find it documented here:
André Sellier, Histoire du camp de Dora, 1998
and also in the book cited above, especially his requests for more
workers. See also the book by Neufeld who wrote the intro to the
English translation of Beons's memiores

Thanks, goes on my list,

Jan

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: did man walk on the moon...and creationism.
    ... Not a merely honorary one like Von Braun. ... guard beating a worker and he told the guard to stop, ... would have complied whether WvB was a real officer, ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: did man walk on the moon...and creationism.
    ... Not a merely honorary one like Von Braun. ... guard beating a worker and he told the guard to stop, ... would have complied whether WvB was a real officer, ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: did man walk on the moon...and creationism.
    ... Not a merely honorary one like Von Braun. ... guard beating a worker and he told the guard to stop, ... would have complied whether WvB was a real officer, ... That many of these slaves were beaten and killed? ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: did man walk on the moon...and creationism.
    ... Not a merely honorary one like Von Braun. ... guard beating a worker and he told the guard to stop, ... would have complied whether WvB was a real officer, ... That many of these slaves were beaten and killed? ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: did man walk on the moon...and creationism.
    ... Not a merely honorary one like Von Braun. ... guard beating a worker and he told the guard to stop, ... would have complied whether WvB was a real officer, ...
    (talk.origins)