Re: OT: Egypt FM "Jews are Pigs"

Mitchell Coffey wrote:
On May 28, 10:09 am, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
MitchellCoffeywrote:
On May 27, 7:28 am, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
MitchellCoffeywrote:
On May 26, 10:55 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Stuart wrote:
http://www.examiner.com/x-2086-NY-Foreign-Policy-Examiner~y2009m5d16-...
They've got some real nutters in Egypt. The conundrum is that the US
and Israel like the "repressive regime; flagrant violations of human
rights; imprisonment of critics of the Mubarak administration; police
brutality toward civilians and student bodies; strict control of the
press; rigged elections, and the list goes on" because they fear that
the nutters would win democratic elections. That could happen. But the
root of the problem is the same as with Israel, Fatah and Hamas.
Because the US, Israel, et al. ("the West") never made allowances for
the legitimate grievances of Arab nationalists, they pushed the people
into the arms of religious extremists who promised to accomplish what
the nationalists couldn't. Where is the democratic, peaceful opposition
in Egypt? It may be there, ready to take control if Mubarak loosens the
reins, or it may have died of frustration long ago. Now the West
doesn't want to take chances. But they have to press Mubarak into
funding more social programs for the people out of the billions in aid.
Evidently you believe Arabs are mindless automata, lacking free will.
I think otherwise. History, from ca. 600ce onward, suggests I'm
right.
Still having trouble with reading comprehension, I see. The West has
long worked to undermine democracy in the Arab countries. First because
of Communism, and now because of terrorism - or just because they get
cheaper oil from autocrats. You can throw Iran and some other Muslim
(non-Arab) countries into that mold - especially Indonesia.
I read what you wrote. You've yet to describe how the "West" was able
to do this, especially in those countries to which it had little
access - in fact ones with a major Soviet presence. You're claim that
the West was largely responsible for the lack of democracy in the Arab
world. Almost with out exception, in Arab countries, this is a-
historical. With exceptions we supported local elites - because they
were local elites. The exceptions were countries that excluded us and
allied with the Soviet Union. For the most part, Arab democratic
attempts collapsed on their own, and the most democratic of Arab
countries have been those with the most Western influence: Jordan and
Lebanon,
For some narrow, self-serving definition of "Western influence."
Those are the ones you want to claim influence over - not the oil
producing countries. Algeria lacked western influence? Iraq?
Curious.

It's curious that you don't know what the word "most" means.

Quantify the influence in each country.

History doesn't show the sort of one-sided Western control of the oil
producing nations that you continually asset.

Not entirely one-sided, but the West has an interest in supporting
autocratic control because that keeps the oil cheaper.

before Lebanese self-rule was crushed by the PLO and Syrian
invasions.
I wonder where you fit in the fact that the Suez Canal remained
Egyptian, per nationalist aspirations, because the United States
threatened Britain and France in 1956.
One event, one time. Because the USSR had invaded Hungary and the US
wanted to convince them to leave. The Communists had a much keener
sense of hypocrisy than conservatives.

Not a one time event; US was, for instance, embargoing sales of
American arms to Israel in the 1950s and later. And you should go and
actually learn something about the relevant history.

What has a US arms embargo against Israel got to do with anything? Is
that supposed to be an example of a pro-democracy tactic? How so?

Since Communism was pretty much defined by hypocrisy... Jesus you're
ignorant.

Strange how you missed Israel's involvement in Suez.

Don't start claiming a superior knowledge of history. As I understand
the issue at question was the actions of the Western powers. That the
US also threatened Israel hardly supports your argument.

You ignore my fundamental point: according to you virtually every
condition under with Arabs dwell is determined by the West. This is
both historically preposterous and immensity patronizing toward
Arabs.
When the West installs and supports autocrats specifically against
democracy - and we see this all over, not just the Middle East - can
the local people change things? Maybe, and slowly, but it's not
racist or patronizing to point out the real politics of the situation.

Yeah, it is racist and patronizing to claim that Arabs lack the
ability of independent action shared by everyone else. Meanwhile, you
continue your unwillingness to actually show how the West maintains
this all-encompassing control over Arab countries.

Do read what I've written and not what you imagine I've written.

--Jeff

--
The comfort of the wealthy has always
depended upon an abundant supply of
the poor. --Voltaire

.

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