Re: OT: Egypt FM "Jews are Pigs"

On Thu, 28 May 2009 11:38:33 -0700 (PDT), in talk.origins , Mike L
<mike_lyle_uk@xxxxxxxxxxx> in
<7afc3554-d790-4994-8642-05a3b59360bc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On 28 May, 05:21, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2009 11:02:33 -0700 (PDT), in talk.origins , Mike L
<mike_lyle...@xxxxxxxxxxx> in
<1018114b-aeb8-4455-baea-28e98ffe0...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:





On 27 May, 14:11, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2009 07:28:07 -0400, in talk.origins , Jeffrey Turner
<jtur...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> in

<-eWdnR7606OGuYDXnZ2dnUVZ_hidn...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
Mitchell Coffey wrote:
On May 26, 10:55 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Stuart wrote:
http://www.examiner.com/x-2086-NY-Foreign-Policy-Examiner~y2009m5d16-...
They've got some real nutters in Egypt.  The conundrum is that the US
and Israel like the "repressive regime; flagrant violations of human
rights; imprisonment of critics of the Mubarak administration; police
brutality toward civilians and student bodies; strict control of the
press; rigged elections, and the list goes on" because they fear that
the nutters would win democratic elections.  That could happen.  But the
root of the problem is the same as with Israel, Fatah and Hamas..
Because the US, Israel, et al. ("the West") never made allowances for
the legitimate grievances of Arab nationalists, they pushed the people
into the arms of religious extremists who promised to accomplish what
the nationalists couldn't.  Where is the democratic, peaceful opposition
in Egypt?  It may be there, ready to take control if Mubarak loosens the
reins, or it may have died of frustration long ago.  Now the West
doesn't want to take chances.  But they have to press Mubarak into
funding more social programs for the people out of the billions in aid.

Evidently you believe Arabs are mindless automata, lacking free will.
I think otherwise.  History, from ca. 600ce onward, suggests I'm
right.

Still having trouble with reading comprehension, I see.  The West has
long worked to undermine democracy in the Arab countries.  First because
of Communism, and now because of terrorism - or just because they get
cheaper oil from autocrats.  You can throw Iran and some other Muslim
(non-Arab) countries into that mold - especially Indonesia.

And if were not for the "West" the Arab world would be a flourishing
democratic paradise, right? The mullahs used to be a force for
progressive democracy until Israel came along, right? After all, all
of Israel's opponents are open fair secular egalitarian democracies..
Either that or you are blowing smoke.

Or he's trying to understand an incredibly complex situation without
falling into the temptation of absurd over-simplification.

Funny, I see "It is Israel and the West's fault" as an absurd
over-simplification.

It would be. But he didn't say that. I can't imagine that you believe
the Western powers have handled the middle east at all intelligently.

Is "intelligently" the appropriate standard? I don't know of any
country that has handled things "intelligently". There are cases here
and there where we can see intelligence at play. Tell me, what Arab
(nation, people) or such handled things in the Middle East
intelligently? I saw Jeffery assert not lack of intelligence, but that
the West and Israel undermined democracy. Do you think that absent
those actions we would see flourishing democracies in the Middle East?

I see no
evidence of workable solutions coming from those who prefer the simple
approach. Decolonization is rarely if ever trouble-free, and the
dismantling of the Turkish Empire is quite manifestly no exception.

Is a "Pan-Arab" control over Jews and Christians somehow non-colonial?
Is oppression of minority religions somehow acceptable?

Huh? I said decolonization was "rarely if ever trouble-free". I can't
draw the connection between your question and such a trivially
unoriginal and uncontroversial remark.

I guess I don't see "decolonization" at play. I know that claim is not
original, but it never made sense to me. Calling Syria a colony of the
Ottoman's is to strip the word "colony" of any useful meaning. The
Turkish control over the area has little in common with the European
colonization of Africa or Asia. And there really was little
colonization of the Middle East.

Perhaps we can at least agree on the snipped bit: the "holy" books
have much to answer for in these troubles.

And what is the explanation for the problems in South and Southeast
Asia? I think that humans have much to answer for, we are able to
latch on to almost anything as an excuse.
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: OT: Egypt FM "Jews are Pigs"
    ... On 27 May, 14:11, Matt Silberstein ... rights; imprisonment of critics of the Mubarak administration; police ... root of the problem is the same as with Israel, ... long worked to undermine democracy in the Arab countries. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: OT: Egypt FM "Jews are Pigs"
    ... root of the problem is the same as with Israel, ... long worked to undermine democracy in the Arab countries. ... the Western powers have handled the middle east at all intelligently. ...
    (talk.origins)
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  • Re: OT: Egypt FM "Jews are Pigs"
    ... rights; imprisonment of critics of the Mubarak administration; police ... root of the problem is the same as with Israel, ... long worked to undermine democracy in the Arab countries. ... the arabs have been in the forefront of opposing democracy. ...
    (talk.origins)