Re: Stop Interdimensional Meddling!

On 14 Mag, 00:24, unrestrained_h...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On May 12, 2:50 pm, Vend <ven...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



On 12 Mag, 17:42, unrestrained_h...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

On May 8, 9:41 am, Vend <ven...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On 8 Mag, 18:26, unrestrained_h...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

On May 8, 5:57 am, Inez <savagemouse...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On May 7, 3:44 pm, Kent <musquods...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On May 7, 12:39 pm, Inez <savagemouse...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On May 7, 12:23 pm, NA Sides <nongo1...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

If you're going to posit the supernatural then you lose the ability to
determine things through logic and Sean's whole argument disappears.
Magic is the violation of logic, and if you're willing to have a
designer magically appear and do magic things you can't rule out the
possibility that things just assembled through magic without a
designer, or that causality is an illusion or something even more
impossible to imagine.  Theorizing a magical designer is just putting
a friendly face on nonsense.

It is not necessary that the supernatural or magic violate logic. The
currently known laws of science may be violated but so what?

How is it supernatural then, and not just the undiscovered natural?
What distinguishes between the two in your view?

If the world is some sort of illusion, then magic or the supernatural
could simply be manifestations of a cause from "the other side". It
could even be very mundane by our standards, but possibly infinite in
power or capacity.

Examples include:
1. I am a brain in a jar, being fed sensory input by a computer via
wires.
2. We are subroutines in a virtual world.
3. Last Thursdayism.
4. We are Brahma's dream, the king of gods, the only god, and all that
is. We are Brahma playing hide and go seek with himself.
5. I am psychotic, and my hallucinations only *seem coherent (as
dreams do).

All of these can conceivably be true; anything can happen in them,
coming from "the other side"; they are unfalsifiable; there is no
reason to think any of them are true (at least, no verifiable reason).

I don't think it makes much difference.
If "the other side" obeys laws, then it can be studied scientifically,
at least in principle, if it doesn't then we can't predict and
generally say anything about it.

Not quite. We can study it scientifically only if we have access to
it.

If we don't have access to it, then it doesn't affect us.

Even if we determined that there was suggestive evidence that we were
a virtual world, we wouldn't know if we were modeled after the "real"
laws of physics, or if we were perhaps something very different. A
simulation to see what other universes might be like, perhaps :)

We could known the internal behavior of the simulator.

How?

Imagine a virtual reality, something like the Matrix (only well-
written).

Other than postulating mystical powers, how could the subroutines
inside access the CPU or program directly? They would see only what
they were programmed to be able to see. Their perceptions, tools,
observed laws of physics, would be int he parameter of the program.

Indeed, that is what we can observe.
Now, if the kid that is running the simulation shows up from time to
time to chat with his creatures, then he would be part of the
observable world of those creatures, hence not supernatural.

I will reiterate for certain mad men who might be reading this, I do
not suspect this in the least bit. But such a scenario would allow for
"top-down" communications and avatars, but no way for us to reach out
or see the reality behind the apparent reality. We wouldn't even know
if we were put in hibernation mode when God went on a weekend camping
trip.

I agree that it wouldn't matter to us. If the world were internally
consistent, and no avatars showed up, there would be no reason to
think so.

Which is the current situation for us. I see no data indicating events
best described as supernatural, nor any avatars with supernatural
powers. But I do deny that "supernatural" is inconceivable, or
meaningless in some way. No more than flying dragons, if less likely.

If the avatar shows up it might appear magical, but it is actually a
rare and not well-understood natural phenomenon.

BTW, for anyone interested, "The Thirteenth Floor" handled this
subject pretty well.http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139809/

Kermit

.

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