Re: Can there be a mathematical proof of evolution?

On Apr 13, 3:51 pm, Bill254 <spintro...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Apr 13, 8:08 pm, pol...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

On Apr 13, 12:25 pm, Bill254 <spintro...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Apr 13, 3:38 pm, Garamond Lethe <cartographi...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 03:24:02 -0700, Bill254 wrote:
On 13 Apr, 06:19, Garamond Lethe <cartographi...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:06:40 -0700, Bill254 wrote:

Your an Idiot.

Nullius in Verba.-

Acts 17:11.

The Royal Society created their motto to draw the distinction between
knowledge and the ability to quote Bible verses and Aristotle.  

That was in 1663, and you're not up to quoting Aristotle yet.

That being said, what on earth does this have to do with anything?

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for
they received the message with great eagerness and examined the
Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

Paul had remarkably little to say about Mycoplasma, if memory serves.  
Perhaps you could try Aristotle.

Neither did the royal society in 1663.

Or perhaps this:

"A man who refuses to admit his mistakes can never be successful. But if
he confesses and forsakes them, he gets another chance."  Proverbs 28:13.

I like Mt 10:11-14. & Mt 7:6.

Now *if* you was willing to learn, perhaps you would know that there
is
no valid hierarchy of bacteria.

Most microbiologists and bacteriologists would disagree with you there
spintwitty

Why don't you say *all*?

by your 'logic', E coli should be just as related to B
thuringiensis as it is to C gangreni and to P furiosis.  Reality shows
you are wrong.

By my logic. E.coli (or whichever version) can uptake genes from
B.thuringiensi (or which ever version) and is just as related to
C. gangreni (or whichever version) [because of the genes it borrowed]
as it is to P furiosis, because it borrowed the same percentage.

Wow - you truly ARE an idiot !

Relatedness of one organism is to another is based on SEQUENCE
SIMILIARITY, not rough percentage !

Researchers can tell the difference between the genes of Escherichia
coli ( E coli) , Bacillus thuringiensis (B thuringiensis), Clostridium
gangreni (C gangreni) and Pyrococcus furiousis (P furiosis). Why else
would they be DIFFERENT SPECIES, IN DIFFERENT GENERA ?

An E coli grabbing 100 kb of B thuringiensis DNA does NOT make it more
similar to a C gangreni that somehow grabbed 100 kb of unrelated DNA
from P furiosus !

By your idiocy, it should be IMPOSSIBLE to tell the difference between
those four bacteria (given your 'teleporting gene' delusions) -
examination of REALITY shows it is rather easy to tell them apart (C
gangreni cannot tolerate oxygen, P furiousus can grow at over 70
degrees Celsius, and B thuringiensis is Gram positive).

Given the FACT that eukaryotes don't replicate like bacteria do,
difficulties generating a hierarchy of BACTERIA does not mean it is
difficult to generate hierarchies for other critters.

So you agree, it's impossible to create a valid hierarchy of bacteria?

Where did I say that, buffoon ? 'Difficult' does NOT mean
'impossible'.

And just how, EXACTLY, would difficulties in generating phylogenies
for BACTERIA have to do with generating phylogenies for other
critters ?

HGT destroys hierarchies, the same way *Genome Transplantation*,
destroys
the original cell, and boots according to the *new genome*.

HGTs do not destroy hierarchies, since you NEED a hierarchy to
determine that an HGT occurred !

No you don't.

Grow at least 1 brain cell, or at least *wake up* on time.

Translation : "sh*t ! Prof Weird isn't falling for by arrogant
bellowing ! Must bellow with even GREATER pomposity !!"

How would YOU tell if a gene was horizontally transferred if there WAS
NO HIERARCHY ? Just proclaim it was transferred, and hope everyone
simply believes you ?

Once again, buffoon : phylogenies are determined from genes that are
vertically inherited - ones that do NOT jump.
Which is WHY HGTs are easy to detect and work around - given a valid
TREE for comparison, HGTs show up like an infected thumb sticking out
of your forehead, so most sane and rational people PICK ANOTHER GENE
to generate a phylogeny from.

HGT would only 'destroy' a hierarchy if one were stupid enough to rely
on just a single gene.

Idiot.

Yes, you are.

In some species, upto 50 percent of the genes are HGT.

Which species might those be - bacteria ?

And HOW did the researchers DETERMINE the amount of HGTs if there is
no phylogeny ?

You do the math. (genome length [~300 genes]. Time 3 billion years. /
hgt events.

Assuming, of course, than eukaryotes transfer genes anywhere near as
readily as bacteria.

Too bad that examination of REALITY shows that it is quite possible to
generate valid phylogenies, even with HGTs.

A genome transplantation would not destroy a hierarchy :

Assume two critters, Species A and Species B.

Species A can rewrite B into another A.

How, EXACTLY, does that destroy a phylogeny GIVEN THE FACT THAT THE
GENOME WAS TRANSFERRED ?

Imagine critter "1".

By definition it has "X" amount of genes.

Imagine critters "2 to Max"

Given that X = ~300.

And HGT happens Y number of times.

Eventually "critter 1" has been rewritten.

Actually, as soon as it receives 1 gene it is no longer "critter 1".

Actually, it would be critter 1 + a new gene, which came from someone
else (and researchers could probably TELL where it came from. And so
NOT USE THAT GENE FOR GENERATING PHYLOGENIES).

Tuberculosis bacteria have been known to pick up a few human genes,
but no sane or rational person would bellow that finding 'destroys da
hierarchy !1!11' - it would NOT make tuberculosis bacteria more
closely related to humans than its less deadly relatives.

You seem to be either willfully stupid or willfully confused - a
genome TRANSFER is all at once. Critter B would be completely
'rewritten' to be Critter A by your scenario.

And just HOW are these HGTs happening ? Magical teleportation ?

(how could anyone tell that a Species A was a Species A and not a
rewritten Species B ?)

Can't

Then HOW could anyone tell that any HGTs or genome rewrites had
happened ?

Your position is self-castrating : if HGTs happened as often as you
bellowed, it would not be possible to generate a valid phylogenetic
tree, and it would not be possible to detect HGTs. All genomes would
appear equally related to each other - human cytochrome should be most
similiar to fish cytochrome, while human hemoglobin would be most
similar to bird hemoglobin.

But that isn't what is seen in reality. Too bad for you.

And what about this :

You would also note that, (though you are having trouble
comprehending)
that *M.Genetalium* has rebooted a yeast cell into *M.Genetalium*.

CITE FOR THAT ?

I suspect you have misinterpreted this article :

"One step assembly in yeast of 25 overlapping DNA fragments to form a
complete Mycoplasma genitalium genome", Gibson DG, et al.,
Proceedings
of the National Academy of Sciences 105(5): 20404-09, Dec 23, 2008

Too bad that the assembled M genitalium genome DID NOT REBOOT THE
YEAST INTO A M GENITALIUM bacterial cell.

Bacteria are prokaryotes; yeast are eukaryotes. They've been known
to
do things a bit differently for about 50+ years.

(for example, CMV is a powerful promoter in eukaryotes, but bacteria
ignore it.
Bacterial promoters are ignored by eukaryotes - which makes your silly-
arsed
'the M genitalium genome rebooted the yeast' comment seem silly and
quite
unsupported)

The M genitalium DNA needed sequences added (yeast origin of
replication and centromere sequences) in order for the yeast cells to
maintain them long enough to link the fragments together.

.

Relevant Pages

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