Re: Truth about the hunter-gather.

Jim Willemin wrote:
"[M]adman" <grat@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:8Bxql.9990$v8.6123@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:

Jim Willemin wrote:
"[M]adman" <grat@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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11 thousand year old temple.

Göbekli Tepe (Turkish for "Hill with a Belly") is a hilltop
sanctuary built on the highest point of an elongated mountain ridge
about 15km northeast of the town of Sanliurfa (Urfa) in
southeastern Turkey. The site, currently undergoing excavation by
German and Turkish archaeologists, was erected by hunter-gatherers
in the 10th millennium BC (ca 11,500 years ago), before the advent
of sedentism. Together with the site of Nevali Çori, it has
revolutionised the understanding of the Eurasian Neolithic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

At Göbekli Tepe was found the first temples with totemic symbols.
And totems were used as late as the Americn Indian. Further
suggesting that the notion of a single creator "God" originates
from a single sourse.

How in the name of wonder do you infer a belief in a single creator
god from totem poles? It would seem to me to be much more
consistent with animism or an animistic pantheon.

It is exactly consistant with animism. You are on the right track.
Only a rendition of the creator God goes at the very top.

Animists can be monotheists and/or polytheists. I.e. they could allot
a heart to each object while believing in a single creative god. In
the bible it mentions orgies on the hill tops where worship poles are
located and how displeased God was of that behavior. So i am sure
they were using herbal drugs used as well since "the watchers" are
recorded to have taught man the use of herbs and the cutting of
roots. Animism includes the use of drugs, slaughtering of animals
and orgy in their practice.

The totem is used as a place to mark a spot on the earth for worship
and gather without the need for a temple. A unique idea to be all
over the planet in specific places.

Which lends some credibility to the "watchers" being in several parts
of the earth teaching man behavior that was considered corruption by
God. The watcher being in many places on earth teaching man could
explain why we see other similarities world wide such as the building
of pyramids in Egypt, Iraq and south America as well.

Or it could be that certain basic ideas are pretty simple, and occur
independently to lots of folks. We've been through the pyramid stuff
before - the only thing in common between the American and Middle
Eastern pyramids is a generally square, pointy shape. Marker poles
are probalby universal, though I doubt they have a universal religious
significance.


And where in the name of wonder did you come up with the notion of
'watchers'? Please be specific, because it seems to me to be purest
bunkum. Much like the flood, if they ever existed they left no trace
whatsoever - and everything you attribute to their influence can be
equally well explained by simple human development.





http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/articles/Gobekli_Tepe_interview.htm

1) Evidence of 11,000 year old temples.

Which were erected by hunter-gatherers - note there is no evidence
for permanent settlement at Gobleki Tepe (though in areas of
abundant food supply permanent settlements are not inconsistent with
pre-agricultural economies - consider the aboriginal settlements of
the Pacific Northwest coast, for example).

I doubt this kind of building would take place and somehow the people
simply lived off of the land. To build such stuctures requires a work
force that would need to be fed.


If and only if it was done all at once. If you spend a couple of
weeks a year hosting a temple-building party for your extended social
group, particularly when there is a lot of food around (e.g. bird
migration season) then you don't need much in the way of permanent
work force. Consider too that the stone used in Gobleki Tepe is soft
and easily worked - and the slabs look to me like they may be almost
naturally quarried (bounded by bedding planes and joints). Sure it
may take a while to build your temple, but I seem to recall that
there is some evidence that the Gobleki Tepe monuments were built
over a considerable span of time.





2)Evidence of 11,000 year old cities under water

We've talked about this, I believe, and unless you have more and
better evidence of age, or are referring to something other than the
'ruins' in the Gulf of Cambay or the ones off Nagapattinam I have to
consider this one highly questionable. There is no convincing
evidence so far for such an old date.

I would agree with you if there was not recorded information in
Indian Vedas that say otherwise. For that reason they should be
assumed older first until evidence says otherwise.


Cite? And I'm afraid I needs must disagree with you here. The cities
MAY be very old, but then again they may not. Ancient textual
references are simply not good enough, since we do not know the intent
of the authors, nor the quality of their sources. A very old date
would be highly unusual, and upset a lot of well-developed
anthropology - that being the case, it seems to me that a very old
date for the ruins requires much more compelling evidence, since
extraordinary claims require extraordinary support.





3) prehistoric artist at Qurta, 15,000 years old
4)The Ballanan-Silsilian culture is dated to about 16,000 to 15,000
years ago
5)the discoveryof a coexisting industry now labeled Silsillian

These three are essentially the same, located on the upper Nile (my
source is Huyge, D. et al., 2007, 'Lascaux along the Nile': Late
Pleistocene rock art in Egypt, Antiquity 81 (313);
http://antiquity.ac.uk/ProjGall/huyge/index.html accessed 1 March
2009). Again, there is no evidence to suggest these were not
hunter-gatherer cultures - the rock art is entirely of fauna, and
there are no agricultural-related implements (e.g. grindstones)
associated with these sites. Agricultural impedimentia show up
later.

My reading says other wise. In fact, I have read that cattle were
brought to Europe from Africa and DNA evidence of European cattle
bears that out to be true. Having the ability to use cattle and then
transplant that cattle suggest world wide trade and farming tecniques
as well. As in the early Europeans traded with the Africans and
perhaps learned their farming as old as 15000 years ago.


Cite?

Take a look at the Huyge paper. It very clearly states the bovid
representations at Qurta are of wild cattle, similar to the European
aurochs, but with shorter horns. It also clearly states the artists
were in a hunter-gatherer society. And farming wasn't invented till
around 10,000 years ago. And there were wild, native European cattle
(aurochs) - I would appreciate a citation to your sources for your
contrary statement.




(c.13,000 BC) 6) Archaeologists in Israel have unearthed an ancient
grave of an elderly woman believed to have been a magical healer
12,000 years ago.

Paleolithic shamans' graves are not, I believe, uncommon (as
Paleolithic graves go), and it seems to me are not inconsistent with
a nomadic hunter-gatherer culture.

There was also evidence of a settled community where the graves were

Cite?


I am not an archaeologist, but it sure seems to me like you have not
presented any evidence inconsistent with hunter-gatherer culture
here.


Everything i have offered comes from archaeologists.

Um... well, if you call Han*** an archaeologist, I suppose so. You
clearly are not citing the original work in Qurta and environs - that
is the Huyge paper, which disagrees with you on several key points.
Just who are you using as a source for that?



As usual, the average T.O'er needs proof so hard that it clobers them
to death

Yup. That is the name of the game, sweetie. Otherwise all you have
is speculation of varying degrees of probability.




The evidence is everywhere.

How do you explain such an advanced cultures 11,000 years ago as
"goat herders and simple hunter gatherers?

That the means of acquiring food were relatively simple says nothing
at all about the complexity of the society, nor of the perfection
attained in those technologies necessary to make a living (e.g.
manufacture of tools and weapons and storage containers). Have you
ever seen a cedar-bark basket crafted by the tribespeople of the
Pacific Northwest coast? You can boil water in those things. While
we're in the Pacific Northwest, look up 'potlatch' and tell me that
is not a sophisticated culture developed on a hunter-gatherer base.

The very fact that they were living in stationary communities says
that hunting and gathering was no longer the /primary/ sourse of food
supply.

You didn't even look up anything about the Pacific Northwest tribes,
did you? The coastal peoples lived off salmon, camas root, and other
fruits of the forest. They did not practice agriculture, yet had
more or less permanent settlements with extensive wooden structures
(longhouses). The amazing abundance of fish and shellfish provided
more than adequate nourishment, while the temperate rain forest
ashore more or less precluded much in the way of agriculture.
Remember, to almost every categorical statement there is at least one
counterexample.





You can't. But ancient texts do. These are the decendents of Adam.
Cain was the first to build a city and name it after his son.

So Cain lived in southeastern India? Or was that northwestern
India? Isn't that a bit of a hike from Mesopotamia? And where in
Genesis does it mention that Cain builded a city, or had a son?

Man, you people on TO are really biblically illerate.

Gen 4:17
"Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth
to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch,
after the name of his son."

Other hebrew stories have further details.

The city Cain built was under UR, which was unearthed by Nimerod
after the flood.

That suggest the garden may have been was west of UR because Cain
went to Nod which was east of Eden




They
started out in caves wearing animal skins made by God. They drew
pictures on the cave walls of dino's. They lived hundreds of years
and accumlated knowledge. Then the watchers corrupted their DNA and
their thinking. The watchers brought evil and corruption to
mankind. Evil prevailed. So God sent a flood. These people are
gone now because of the flood. Exactly as described in the book of
genesis.

Where in Genesis does in mention living in caves? Chapter and
verse, please. Where in Genesis does it mention living with
dinosaurs? Chapter and verse, please. Who and what were the
watchers? Where are they mentioned in Genesis? Where is DNA
mentioned in Genesis? All this is pure made-up, non-biblical
fiction - hogwash and codswallop.

Yeah,. Keep that head in the sand. That is OK with me.

And why on earth do you think you are important enough for me to sit
down and make up such a story?

I don't think you made it up - I think you swallowed it hook. line,
and sinker from somebody else who had something to sell. Nor am I at
all important - quite the contrary - however, I think the points I
raise are often significant to your argument.



Try reading "The Cave of Treasures" and the /many/ other Hebrew and
Arab traditions that describe where Adam and Eve went to live after
they were removed from the garden. Adam, and latter Eve, were buried
in the Cave they once lived in. They are recorded to have lived
hundreds of years and even drew pictures on the cave walls where they
lived. Some of those pic's were of creatures that appear strikingly
similar to dinos.

Cite? I mean, crocodiles are similar to dinos too...

These dipictions really do look like Dino's. But still inconclusive IMHO




God made the clothes from animal skin. In the bible. All of this
information can be found in ancient texts.



http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=
15;t = 0 00908

All in all i would say the average T.O'er is not very bight.



Since a bight is a loop, I think I agree with you here - the average
denizen of T.O. is not particularly loopy (present company excepted,
of course).



Here is that link you asked for about the cattle.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000908

Very intresting stuff there too.


~~~~~

3 points you made to address:

1) There is too much recorded and too many ancient books regarding "the
watchers" for them to have been a made up story. Where there is smoke...
there is usually fire. And the bible tells of why there is no evidence of
them or their offspring.

2) The vedas do cite ancient cities and even describe what sounds like a
nuclear war 10 to 12 thousand years ago. AND, indian scientists did unearth
an ancient city but were forced to cover it back up due to high levels of
radioactivity that was discovered after people began to die ---maybe another
discussion one day. The vedas can be quite a labor and i do not recall which
book.

3) The animal skins that God made for adam is in genesis. Genesis 3:21 .
The cave part is NOT in genesis and i am sorry if i mislead you. It is in
the "book of Adam and Eve", and the in "Cave of Treasures". And also
mentioned in other books.

Gotta go for now.

Adman.



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