Re: That's the way to tell 'em!
- From: fcj3@xxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:00:57 -0800 (PST)
On Feb 20, 12:49 pm, Desertphile <desertph...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:39:38 -0800 (PST), f...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Feb 19, 3:51 am, NKTB <north_korean_tourist_bo...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From PZ Myers' blog.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/how_to_respond_to_requests....
Nice one Nick!I left this comment:
"Some more advice to David Klinghoffer: Please don't even think of
spinning it as Prof. Gotelli being 'afraid' to debate you. But you
might want to tell us why you ID activists are so afraid to debate
each other, especially since your internal disagreements regarding
such key issues as the age of life and common descent are just as
ireconcilable as your disagreements with 'Darwinists'."
That's a damn good point. Why do Creationists often disagree so
radically?
Why, because the evidence only *converges* on evolution, including old
earth, old life and common descent. That leaves all sorts of mutually
contradictory alternatives competing for "second best." So if one is
convinced that evolution is wrong, the evidence provides no help them
for them to agree on a "second best." Nor does scripture, which comes
in several mutually contradictory "literal" interpretations.
Most critics seem to forget (actually they don't forget, but somehow
think it's not important enough to alert those new to the 'debate')
that before the modern "scientific" YEC movement, creationists had all
sorts of opinions, from flat-earthism and geocentrism to various old-
earth-young-life versions to progressive OEC. In fact, as evidence
mounted, most of them probably drifted closer to old-earthism and
allowing more evolution. YEC at least salvaged most of them by
providing a compromise position. But OEC persisted, and even had its
own pretense of science. To get around that, and also to get around
the court cases that ruled against teaching "creationism", a more
"don't ask, don't tell" approach was needed. But there's no reason to
think that the activists - as opposed to the rank and file who rarely
give it 5 minutes' thought - didn't still have all those
irreconcilable differences. Or even privately accepted more of
evolution than they would have before the "scientific" YEC era. The ID
folk in particular, do occasionally let on that they are mostly
progressive OECs and often even concede common descent. But they
rarely advertise it, and unlike traditional OECs, have a prior
commitment to a big tent where YECs are welcome.
Of course as predictable as Pavlov's dog salivating, Klinghoffer spun
it to the rubes as Gotelli being "afraid" to debate.
Back when Rev Kent Hovind was not in prison I asked him to debate
me on the conservation of angular momentum. He refused, proving he
was afraid of my brain.
Careful. Refusing to debate does not necessaily mean "afraid", or else
one could say the same for Gotelli, and he certainly is not afraid.
Hovind and other "kinds" of anti-evolutionist are certainly afraid to
"debate" the way science debates - by testing one's own ideas
independent of perceived "weaknesses" in other theories. Actually
Hovind would probably *want* to debate you, as long as he could choose
who is in the audience. He might even debate OECs, too, but he's old
school, like Duane Gish who did debate Hugh Ross. But those more into
"don't ask don't tell" (IDers) will do anything to avoid publicizing
their disagreements with other creationists. It's the height of
hypocrisy for IDers to say that *anyone* is "afraid" to debate when
they would do anything to avoid debating other "kinds" of anti-
evolutionist.
--http://desertphile.org
Desertphile's Desert Soliloquy. WARNING: view with plenty of water
"Why aren't resurrections from the dead noteworthy?" -- Jim Rutz
.
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