Re: Disorderly Conduct

On Feb 2, 7:16 pm, "[M]adman" <g...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
unrestrained_h...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Feb 2, 5:30 am, "[M]adman" <g...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Caranx latus wrote:
On Feb 2, 2:07 am, "[M]adman" <g...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
As the universe expands it becomes more and more disorderly.

This proves the 2nd Law of TD.

In fact, entropy is everywhere in the universe.

Except. When it comes to Humans.

Humans do not become more disorderly as time goes by. Quite the
contrary. History shows that Humans have become more organized, are
increasing their knowledge and are more ordered with their
civilizations as time goes by.

IOW we are more "ordered" today then we were 5000 years ago when we
hunted, gathered and did small farming.

We become more ordered as time goes by because we are created in
the image and likeness of an Organized and Orderly God.

<sigh/>

Why the "sigh" fish?
What you (and a few others) perceive as my lack of understanding is
actually your own.

Dufus. From Wikipedia:
"In thermodynamics (a branch of physics), entropy, symbolized by S,[3]
is a measure of the unavailability of a system’s energy to do work"

Human society and technology is not the province of thermodynamics,
except in the sense that *all of matter and energy are subject to it.

The second law is about heat dispersal, not political systems. Unless
I can turn off my heat without he house getting cold, or they finally
have those  perpetual motion machines working. the Second law of
thermodynamics still applies to humans.

Read the paragraph again. The topic was entropy. The transitional
sentence from the universe form of entropy to the mankind form of
entropy was:

["In fact, entropy is everywhere in the universe."]

In a sense, yes; entropy describes the state of available energy in
any subset of the universe, and perhaps the universe as a whole.

In no way did I say that the 2LTD was applied to man in the /same/
manor
that it applies to the expanding universe.

Too bad, because we are subject to the same physical laws everything
else is.

Please remember that  a "law" is just observed universal behavior; we
may have it wrong because our observations are incomplete. The law of
conservation of matter and energy is an example - we modified it after
Einstein. The universe didn't change, instead our understanding of it
improved.

I said that Humans are an
exception to "entropy".

Yes, and you are wrong. You display a profound misunderstanding of
this. Please look up entropy and thermodynamics in Wikipedia. Unless
you can understand these introductory articles, you can't possibly
discuss this intelligibly.

I did not say that humans are an exception to the
form of "entropy" we see taking place in the universe. I gave the
2LTD in
the universe as an example of the fact that entropy does exist. I
did this
in the first two sentences. The third sentence uses entropy in a more
general sense because of the various forms of entropy that can be
observed.

The word "entropy" has several uses and implied meanings depending
on how it is used and depending on what context it is used in. But
because I used the 2LTD regarding the universe as an example first
_your brain stopped right there_ without applying the other meanings
of the word 'entropy' to mankind
in order to see which one fit best.

Here, look at the possible uses:

en·tro·pies
1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative
measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.
2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.
3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.
4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve
toward a state of inert uniformity.
5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a _system or society_.

As you can see, numbers 4 and 5 can and do apply to mankind.

As do 1,2, and 3.

 While numbers
1,2,4 and 5 can apply to the universe in general with 1 and 2
applying specifically. Number 3 applying to mankind's communication.

Three also apples to the universe as a whole. While I know almost as
little as you about information theory, I know that I don't know
enough about it to say anything useful. Do you really think that if we
were exempt from universal laws that it wouldn't be widely known and
discussed in the scientific community?

So what I wrote in the OP has several distinct points.

The OP  showed such a confusion of ideas that it is still difficult to
determine what you are trying to say.

1) The 2LTD is proved to exist because of the observed entropy as the
universe expands. (I used this as an example to show entropy does
exist).

No, it's a description of observed behavior. It's not proven; it's a
fact. It may be an incomplete or subtly wrong description of that
process, but we do have no reason to think so.

2) entropy is everywhere in the universe. (We can observe it in
various forms).

It's ...not really *stuff. It's what the universe *does. When you talk
like this it is not obvious you understand that.

3) entropy does not seem to apply to mankind because of 4 and 5
above AND because of the reasons I gave in my OP.

Even after your errors were pointed out to you, you are saying things
which are wrong. In what way does the democratic process, modern
English, gas-powered automobiles, or computer networks violate the
second law? Your reason 5 is a *metaphor used by historians and social
scientists.

4) a conclusion of why I think entropy does not apply to mankind

If you cannot see these 4 points in my OP then you will never
understand the bible or books like the bible. The bible will ramble
on and on and almost
put you to sleep, and then when you least expect it, the point is
being
made. And that is where keen sense of perception is needed. So you
do not
miss it.

When you first started posting here I gave you the benefit of the
doubt - I thought you might know something about literature and
religion even if you were hostile to the scientific process. But you
have made it clear that you lack reading comprehension, you sorely
need to cultivate the patience to follow a train of thought, and are
probably congenitally incapable of self-assessment. I am embarrassed
to read your posts; I feel bad watching your public humiliation.

Despite educational level, it would seem that many of you are an
easy target for anyone selling swamp land in Florida; Such as
evolution. Because in reality, evolution is an often conflicting and
very flimsy theory. You just cannot perceive the fine points of it's
errors just as you missed the fine points of my OP.

OK. Two dogs walk up to a road with heavy traffic. One dog stops and
sits down, the other wanders out and gets killed. The sitting dog gets
up when the traffic stops, and crosses. She later has puppies.
Evolution in action. Please explain how the second law of
thermodynamics is violated. (Or information theory, or historical
theories).

I will not address your usual meandering rationalizations.

In turn, I will speculate that the reason you do not is because you
find them difficult to answer without admitting error or confusion.


But I will address your rather interesting analogy at the end.

The puppies are an advancement from the original wolf species.

So wolves show no sign of entropy. They have shown signs of ordered
advancement by producing another "kind" called the dog.

I am guessing that you would consider "advancement" to be evolution.
You seem to be admitting that evolution does not violate the Second
Law of Thermodynamics.

Kermit

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics - Irrelevant to Origins
    ... closed systems only. ... But that's NOT the Second Law. ... Thermodynamics has to be just about the most subtle subject ... `A Guide to Entropy and the Second Law,' by Elliot Lieb ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: ENTROPY and the Direction of Time from the BIG BANG
    ... dictated by the increase of entropy,. ... The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that the universe tends ... us that are converting one type of energy or another into heat ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: the why question
    ... >> maximization of the rate of entropy gain in the universe. ... > It seems reasonable to think that living systems can conserve resources ... thermodynamics explains the things that do exist or happen in the universe, ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Disorderly Conduct
    ... except in the sense that *all of matter and energy are subject to it. ... The second law is about heat dispersal, ... The topic was entropy. ... any subset of the universe, and perhaps the universe as a whole. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Disorderly Conduct
    ... "In thermodynamics, entropy, symbolized by ... S,is a measure of the unavailability of a system?s energy to do ... Second law of thermodynamics still applies to humans. ... any subset of the universe, and perhaps the universe as a whole. ...
    (talk.origins)