Re: [some stupid Pagano-changed thread title]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:32:43 -0500, Perplexed in Peoria wrote:

"Grandbank" <zeteticdds@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:a5cd32dd-8042-45fc-aa6a-
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On Dec 19, 6:01 am, "Perplexed in Peoria" <jimmene...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
"Steven L." <sdlit...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
messagenews:B5Wdnea12fQwl9bUnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[snip stuff in response to Pagano defense of Behe, leaving this cool
analogy]

Every time you change the tire on your car, you have to deal with
this. If you could only "act on the existing functions" of the car,
you would have to change the tire while all four existing tires of
the car rest on the ground, which would be impossible. Instead, you
add a *temporary* function (the jack), jack up one wheel, change the
tire on that wheel, lower that wheel back to the ground, and then
remove that jack function again. At all times you were acting on
existing function. But what you did was a *nonlinear* process--you
introduced a temporary element (the jack) only to get rid of it again
at the end.

But if you didn't know that's how tires are changed, and you looked
only at the finished end product (a car with four fully-inflated
tires), you would conclude that it's impossible to change a car's
flat tire--you can't get the tire under the wheel rim as long as that
wheel is sitting on the ground.

In engineering, many things work this way: Skyscrapers are erected
with temporary scaffolding that is removed before the building is
open for business. Highway overpasses are erected with hydraulic rams
that hold them up until the overpass is built and can stay up on its
own, after which the hydraulic rams are removed.

With species that are constantly gaining and losing function in order
to adapt to new environments, it's easy to lose track of the
"temporary scaffolding" that got a species to where it is. That
"temporary scaffolding" is an ancestor species that no longer needs
that highly specialized function.

The tire-change analogy is a nice one that I hadn't heard before, but
I'm afraid it doesn't serve your rhetorical purpose very well. The
problem is that the intermediate state (car jacked up, tire not changed
yet) is non-functional.

Sure it is. The engine is running, the heater works, and Mom and the
kids are snoozing inside, protected from the freezing sleet. Not to
mention the trunk is keeping the groceries dry.

[PiP: Quite true. But how are Mom and the kids better off with one
wheel raised off the ground by the jack?]

You are making the mistake of assuming the _only_ purpose of the car is
to drive. In fact the car serves a number of purposes, and many of them
are served quite well while the car is jacked up. This is common in
evolution - many purposes are being served, and the temporary loss of one
may not be fatal.

But I agree the example does not truly capture the essence of
evolutionary change. Perhaps a better example is a RAID array.You can
lose one hard drive and the array will keep working. When you replace it
you use a faster and larger hard drive. Eventually when you have replaced
all of them you have a better system. Unfortunately this is a fairly
esoteric example.

Yours,

Bill Morse

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: [some stupid Pagano-changed thread title]
    ... If you could only "act on the existing functions" of the car, ... would have to change the tire while all four existing tires of the car ... *temporary* function, jack up one wheel, change the tire on ... It doesn't cross valleys. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: More brake questions, and warped wheel?
    ... Well sounds like you have some wheel issues. ... Wheels, even from the same car manufacturer, change the offset ... Also tire widths are different as well, ... tighten every other bolt around the rim for 5 lug wheels. ...
    (rec.autos.tech)
  • Re: "Steer Ahead"
    ... Angle, and Total Toethat have been around since square ... Actually, to keep my car pointing straight ahead, I need to "force" ... the steering wheel to the right about the 1 o'clock position. ... Depending on whether the scrub radius is positive or negative, the tire with the high rolling resistance can be on the side pulled toward, or the side pulled away from. ...
    (rec.autos.tech)
  • Re: [some stupid Pagano-changed thread title]
    ... If you could only "act on the existing functions" of the car, ... would have to change the tire while all four existing tires of the car ... *temporary* function, jack up one wheel, change the tire on ... climb hills. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Iain confuses Behes test for IC with a claim about historical
    ... If you could only "act on the existing functions" of the car, you would have to change the tire while all four existing tires of the car rest on the ground, which would be impossible. ... Instead, you add a *temporary* function, jack up one wheel, change the tire on that wheel, lower that wheel back to the ground, and then remove that jack function again. ... many things work this way: Skyscrapers are erected with temporary scaffolding that is removed before the building is open for business. ... Unlike many state-space optimization problems in system space, "fitness" is simply relative to whatever the environment is at a given point in time--and that's always changing. ...
    (talk.origins)
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