Re: Michael Ruse's Model

On Nov 10, 3:10 pm, "\(M\)-adman" <g...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
John Harshman wrote:
(M)-adman wrote:

[\]

If evolution happens so slowly, there must be something laying around
that clearly shows a creature that can use fins to swim and walk, as
well as lungs to breath and gills to survive under water. Surely you
have something to prove this transition between water and land if it
is hardly controversial.

You don't understand evolution at all. Lungs arose in fish that lived
in water. The swim bladders of teleost fish are modified lungs.
Ability to use the concentrated oxygen in air was presumably an
advantage at some point. There are many fish (other than tetrapods)
that walk on their fins. Look up mudskippers, for example. As for
transitional fossils, check out the previously mentioned
Panderichthys, Tiktaalik, and Ichthyostega. All of these were aquatic
animals possessing both gills and lungs, with fins that had the same
anatomical structure as our limbs.

I looked at many pics:

I looked at pics of Panderichthys. It looks like a damn fish.

I looked at at pics Tiktaalik.
This one has the potential to go on shore after food and then muddle it's
way back to water on rather long fins.

I looked at at pics Ichthyostega.
This one looks like it could have better locomotion on land then Tiktaalik.

Great! You have made the first steps along a path that will lead to
enlightenment. Now that you have looked at some pictures, you need to
read some books. Try some General Biology textbooks first- the usual
one recommended is _Biology_ by Campbell and Reece. Then move on to an
evolution text. Many people including me like Futuyma's book. Now try
a paleontology text, and possibly an ichthyology text. Richard Forrest
will be happy to recommend one in either field, I am sure, and John
Harshman can probably do a good job also. Then we will await your
detailed critique of these specimens. In print, preferably.

But where are the rest in the chain (assuming these three examples are
actually a chain) that shows a creature that is clearly no longer a fish?

That would be you.

And how can you possibly know that these three examples are transitional
steps to a land animal without a time machine? These could be three seperate
creatures/species.

Well now. Here's an interesting tidbit. When you were looking at those
pictures did you happen to read the captions at least? Did you see
that they span at least 10-15 million years? They _are_ separate
species. The skeletons alone should tell you that. Do we know that one
evolved from another? Not without a time machine, as you say. If you
wish, though, to dispute the hypothesis that they exhibit a trend that
starts in the seas and ends on land, you might want to read the
publications that describe the specimens, learn as much about them as
you can, and include as much detail in _your_ publication as the
paleontologists include in theirs. If you do, you will be famous, at
least in paleontology. Not rich, I'm afraid, but you'll get your 15
minutes.



This is also assuming that the artists rendering of these creatures is
accurate in the first place.

Absolutely correct. Good thing we know from other, extant organisms
what general appearance results from particular skeletal structures.
They do take liberties, but they get most of it as close as they can.

How do you know that the limbs were fully functional?

It is the way to bet, since similar limbs on extant species are fully
functional.

How do you know how
long they could survive on land?

We don't. Not that that matters.

Why would a fish struggle to evolve into a
land animal when it would be easier to adapt to other food sources within
it's normal habitat?

All the hot babes were in the swamp bars.

Why would a fish jeopardize it's life to go on land for
food anyway?

You ever try to eat a cheeseburger underwater?

What other reasons would a fish have to go onto land if not for
food?

Dirty movies at the drive-in. Beer.

If there was no food to support the fish in the seas there should be
evidence of that fact.

Ah, evidence of no food. Good one.

The mind boggles at the questions that could be raised regarding how mankind
came from fish.

The mind boggles at the contortions a creationist will go through to
make sure the goalposts keep moving.

Chris

.

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