Re: Atheists support evolution because evolution supports their
- From: AC <mojo214@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: 3 Nov 2008 18:42:38 GMT
On Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:54:24 -0600,
Suzanne <shiloh7@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Woland" <jerrydeon@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Oct 31, 8:48 pm, "Suzanne" <shil...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Andre Lieven" <andrelie...@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Oct 30, 11:54 pm, "Suzanne" <shil...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Ye Old One" <use...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in messagenews:
el5rf41621lmittrvit9bmlu69rhkge...@xxxxxxxxxx
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:04:22 -0500, "Suzanne" <shil...@xxxxxxxxx>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
--------OK...a little background. The devil, which is Satan
From Suzanne:
You don't understand what has been said.
There is nothing circular about it. It goes
to the foot of the cross. Christ laid down
his life for the sake of all of us. You can't
prove that you love someone more than if
you give their life for them, and for their
sake. It is the ultimate sacrifice.
---------
How is an immortal dying any kind of sacrifice? Especially if that
immortal is God and ( I would assume) can do whatever they want. I
really don't understand this.
and God had this angelic conflict going on. Satan
turned evil and wanted to be God. He got a third of
the angels to rebel against God and go with him and
be on his side.
So God has HR problems?
When God created Adam, he gave
Adam dominion over the earth. If the devil could get
man to sin, that would mean he would lose dominion,
and Satan/the devil would gain it.
Is there some sort of rule book for this? Is this in Heaven's Constitution
or something? I don't recall any passage from the Bible that suggests this
at all. The crazy-ass sect I came from believed, in fact, that Satan was
the angel in charge of the Earth at the time of his rebellion (not that I
thikn that has any more Scriptural weight than what you're saying).
Sort of like when
a football player intercepts a ball and then the ball is
"owned" by his team. But see, God knew ahead of time,
since he knows all things, even future things, and he
planned around this. But Satan didn't understand this.
Your metaphors are pretty damned bizarre. I always thought Heaven was this
place of Divine Grace and Government, and not a sort of cosmic playground
where superpowerful kids run around tossing balls, trying to make rule
changes on the fly.
--
So, Satan somehow has the form of the serpent in the
Garden of Eden and he wants to get man to sin. He
observed that Adam loved Eve, so the devil plotted
to trick Adam by getting his woman in trouble. Now,
God had warned Adam that he would die (literally
double die...meaning to die and stay dead permanently)
if he ate of the forbidden fruit.
This is beginning to sound like a set up.
The devil, being a dirty fighter, summed up that Eve
had a blindspot - a thing he considered was a weakness.
So Satan, the devil, in the form of the serpent tempted
her by telling her she would be as smart as God if she
ate the forbidden fruit. So...she fell for it hook, line,
and sinker, because she loved Adam and wanted him to
think of her as being smart. She ate it, thought it tasted
great and then told Adam and offered him the fruit also.
Is there anywhere in the Bible where Eve is said to partake of the fruit
because she was trying to be really smart?
--
You find out in the N.T. that he knew all along and was
not deceived like she was, but he ate it, too. You also
find out in the N.T. that he did this for a sacrificial
reason.
Wow! That's a new one. Can you provide the scriptures that support this
view?
But he really could not atone for her sins, so
now that put him in jeapardy, and he lost dominion,
like someone would lose all that they had in a game
of dice. With dominion now in Satan's possession, Satan
thought he had pulled the perfect coup against God
and that he could now win God's throne. I don't know
what the devil was thinking about how to do that. But
you find out in Ezekiel and in Isaiah that he said in his
heart that he wanted to "be like the most high." Actually
that he wanted to be God. He has now gotten Adam to
sin willfully and openly and without having been
deceived in the transaction. This completes telling the
background, and the rest is a little easier to relate...
Because God said to Adam that he would surely die,
and because God can't be wrong because he is God,
man was destined to eventually die. God said, "it is
appointed unto man once to die. After that, the
judgment." So that sounds really stern. Adam died
immediately spiritually, progressively in his soul,
and ultimately in his body. However, God intervenes.
God can't be wrong, to be sure, but he can do whatever he likes. There was
no reason for this. Like I said, it sounds like a set up, like God wanted
Adam and Eve to eat the fruit. Hey, maybe Satan and God are in cahoots. In
Job, they're betting buddies, so why not?
The book of Genesis skips something that you have
to deduce.
Hooh boy, there goes the literalism.
God makes Adam and Eve clothes, that
He, Himself, sews for them out of animal skins.
God's a seamstress now. This is like something out of 2001: A Space
Odyssey.
Here you have to read between the lines but it is
there.
More tossing out of the literalism.
Animal skins mean that something had to die
in order to produce the skins. So that was the first
death in the Bible. Adam and Eve probably were
very solemn that their clothes would be because
of someone's death for their sakes. Adam and Eve
accept the clothes God made for them, and this is
an indication that they are going to let God be
their covering. Genesis 3:15 about the seed of the
woman is promised and that seems to be their
introduction that there was going to be a savior in
time. We can figure this out by the fact that their
later born sons, Cain and Abel would know to bring
a sacrifice to the Lord. Abel's pleased God because it
was a blood sacrifice, and Cain's did not please God.
I just gotta ask, what denomination are you?
--
Apparently the blood sacrifice, as serious and
objectionable as it is to see something die for the
fact that you have sins, it must have made them
realize that one day the seed/redeemer would die
for their sakes. You can figure this out from other
verses in the Bible. But you don't know it right
away when you start reading the Bible.
I'm aware of the blood sacrifice nature of the Bible. It's pointless. Why
does an infinite being require them?
You know the story of Cain and Abel, I am pretty
sure. Then Cain moves away I guess after his
sister grew up to be his bride, or even a cousin or
whoever she was. So, here are Adam and Eve now,
probably wondering when this seed of the woman
would be born that would somehow redeem them.
Are we even talking about Genesis any more?
--
They have the baby next named Seth. The Bible
says that Seth was born "in the image of Adam."
That means he was born in the image of now fallen
man, because Adam and Eve had become mortal.
Mortal means "to die," or one capable of dying.
Cain and Abel also had been born after the fall of
man from the Garden of Eden, so all that were born
from them were going to be born mortal, and they
would have a tendency to sin, because they
inherited that from Adam and Eve. OK. Now....
Man could not be saved from death without there
being another Adam who would live his life sinless.
Why? God could certainly wave his figurative hand, and everyone would be
restored. The whole incident is pointless, and more to the point, cruel.
Adam, Eve and their descendants are victims of a game that seems horribly
stacked against them.
That would somehow reverse the curse placed on
Adam from his sin, if somehow that person's sinlessness
could be appropriated by other people who are mortal,
so that they could take on immortality. God could not
undo the edict that man would die if he ate the forbidden
fruit because it was a done deal.
Of course He could. God is all-powerful. Heck, He's all-knowing, so he
even knew prior to the creation of Satan, Adam and Eve that this whole sad
story was going to take place.
But he could go around
it to rescue man, and in a way the devil didn't fully grasp.
Your telling makes the Devil seem like some sort of moron.
The promised seed of the woman is the messiah, which
Christians know of as being Christ. But there was a
problem that was outstanding....
All men would have to die permanently, unless somehow
the messiah could do something about it. We didn't sin
to inherit the curse, we were just born into it and born
mortal bearing the problem because we were mortal.
Yet after we are innocent babies, will will have
sins because we are weak in our natures. That's called
the sin nature and we all have that. So, it's appointed to
man (mankind) to die, but the permancy of death has to
be overcome. The only way that would be possible
would be if this one who was sinless could somehow
die, taking upon himself the sins of us all that otherwise
would condemn us, too, to permanent death. So Jesus
chose to die bearing our punishment for us. He did for
us what we could not do for ourselves. Only God
could endure against his own edict and be victorious.
Now, here's the catch...
Again, this omnipotent God of yours becomes nothing more than a slave to
bizarre Bronze Age blood rituals.
When Jesus died, bearing the sins of us all upon himself
and for our sakes, he overturned the permanancy
of death and he caused all people that after they die,
they will now be alive for eternity. This is good news
for those who receive him, but not so good news for
those who don't accept his payment for their sins by
turning to the Lord in faith to trust him with their
lives and with their salvation. So he had to die in order
to rescue the ones that trusted him with their salvation,
in order to give them the chance to be resurrected back
to life as he was, himself. I hope this explains it. One
more thing...
In Genesis the curse is in Genesis 2:17:
It says,
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou
shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof
thou shalt surely die."
--
In the original Hebrew, the words translated into
English there that say "surely die," are translated
from the words: "muwth" and "muwth." There are
two words there for die. It says "thou shalt surely
die die." It means man will die dead. Or better it
would be to say he would die a death that is
permanent. But because the messiah that God
would send would take away the sting of death,
which is permanency of death, and since man
would still have to die once, he would be able
to now live forever. Jesus did not die just for the
people that are Christians, he died for all people
to be alive again because since he was sinless
and took the punishment they all would have
had of permanency of death, all would now be
made alive. And this is in the Bible like this:
--
1 John 2:2:
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not
for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole
world."
Romans 5:12:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and
death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that
all have sinned"
Rmans 5:17:
"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much
more they which receive abundance of grace and of the
gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ."
--
And here, Jesus is called the last Adam, because he
permanently and forever undid the curse placed on Adam
and all his descendants of permanent death. We no longer
will have to face eternal death:
1 Corinthians 15:45:
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a
living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
The writer rejoices here in this verse about the victory
of the Lord over the permanency of death:
1 Corinthians 15:55:
"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
1 Corinthians 15:22:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be
made alive."
Daniel talks about the Messiah in detail in chaper
10, and then in chapter 12 he says this:
Daniel 12:2-3:
2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall
awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and
everlasting contempt.
3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the
firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the
stars for ever and ever."
So, the simple answer to your question is that Jesus died
in order to overturn the permanancy of death for man,
and so that he could take upon himself what we would
otherwise have had to endure.
And this verse sums it all up:
John 3:16:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten
Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have everlasting life."
This is all getting too long winded.
--
Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@xxxxxxxxx
.
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