Re: Evolutionist says you can't build a large wooden ship
- From: "Tiny Bulcher" <alycidon9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 19:37:42 +0100
þus cwæð r norman:
On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 01:35:21 -0700 (PDT), Tiny Bulcher
<alycidon9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sep 3, 11:59 pm, r norman <r_s_norman@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 21:18:44 +0100, "Tiny Bulcher"
<alycid...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
þus cwæð r norman:
On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 19:56:44 +0100, "Tiny Bulcher"
<alycid...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
þus cwæð J. J. Lodder:
It is also useful to remember that the authors of Noah's tale
(as written down in final form) were further removed in time
from the actual? events that gave rise to the tale
than you are from the historical? King Arthur and his round
table.
Arthur is probably not historical, and his table definitely
isn't.
Anyway, how do you know when the relevant bit of Genesis was
written, and that it was more than 1500 years after the 'real'
flood?
If the flood was sometime between 2500 BCE and 2300 BCE and Exodus
was around 1400 BCE and since Moses wrote the first five books of
the Bible, it was only 900 to 1000 years. So your figures are
completely wrong. It might be hard to recall what happened 1500
years ago but a mere 1000 years is a piece of cake!
That would be JJ's figures that are wrong then. My 1500 years was
from now back to the post-Roman Britain when Arthur supposedly
lived, and JJ said from Noah to Genesis was longer than that. What
are you going by here, anyway: Ussher?
JJ Lodder says in a separate post to use archeologically reasonable
dates: Gilgamesh epic to Babylonian exile. However if you want to
actually be reasonable, then the flood is purely mythical anyway.
There may have been a real event at the back of it, perhaps; some
farmer who saved his livestock by putting them on a raft. You can
perhaps see how his story, retold as an exemplar of prudence, could
have grown into a bigger myth.
Floods are routine events in many areas and very large "once in a
century" floods come along on average -- umm, let's see now --- about
once a century. I have no doubt that any good novelist or
story-teller could make up a real humdinger of a story about the flood
that almost wiped out all of creation. And I have no doubt that the
bards responsible for orally transmitting epic tales and historic lore
from generation to generation were absolutely super story tellers.
Stories retold generation after generation tend to be about gods and
superheroes and epic quests, not about John who sold his goat for
three baskets but Bill got five bowls for his.
I am using traditional creationist dates which I believe may
originate with Josephus but were made popular by Ussher. My
reference to Moses as being the author should be a giveaway. My
analysis of remembering well what is only 1000 years old but
forgetting what is 1500 should indicate just how serious my
argument is.
I was being exactly as serious as you are.
Being seriously serious, though, the Arthurian stories are a good
example of how myths grow; in the stories as they are generally known
today, nothing - absolutely nothing - survives of the original mileu
in which an historical Arthur would have lived. He has gone from
being a hero who fought against the (pagan) English to being a hero
/of/ the English, with the scene translated from 6th century Britain
to a generic medieval fantasyland. This happened in approximately a
thousand years (from Badon to Malory). The transformation of the
story is however not just a consequence of the length of time, but
also a comsequence of the lack (almost total) of documentation of
the real history, so that the latter was not remembered; there was
no 'true' record to serve as a check against the myth, and when the
likes of Geoffrey of Monmouth purveyed the myth as history, there
were none tio gainsay him. (To be fair, one could offer as a counter
example the Matter of France, where myths were woven around the
court of Charlemagne, despite the real history being quite well
recorded).
How much more so, then, for Noah (and Moses)?
If you use Geoffrey of Monmouth as a link, you knock three centuries
off the time interval.
Yeah, but Geoffrey still retained elements of the 'real' story; his
Arthur still fights against the Saxons.
I like the example of Homer whose epics are dated to perhaps only 400
years earlier. The best explanation I have heard to support a real
Trojan war deals with the Mycenians wanting to ensure free access to
the trade routes to the Black Sea through the Dardanelles whose
opening was controlled by the Trojans. That doesn't make nearly as
good a tale as "the face that launched a thousand ships".
I always wondered at the correct reading of Marlowe's line; is it in
tones of awe and wonder, or is she so plug-ugly Faust can't believe this
is Helen?
.
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