Re: A Few Simple Questions

On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:01:40 -0700, Ray Martinez wrote:

On Jul 1, 9:24 am, Mark Isaak <eci...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:57:27 -0700, Ray Martinez wrote:
On Jun 30, 1:04 pm, Mark Isaak <eci...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:39:58 -0700, Ray Martinez wrote:
On Jun 29, 4:51 pm, Mark Isaak <eci...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:31:48 -0700, Ray Martinez wrote:
False assumption/comparison: facts about zoos falsifies claims
concerning the Ark.

Oh, the claims concerning the Ark are pleny falsified already.  The
comparison with zoos is just to show how absurd the ark is.

Your comments are built on a false assumption: that the Ark carried
every animal species that exists on Earth today.

Either that, or the animal species evolved.  Since Ray rejects
evolution, Ray Martinez is saying the Bible is false.

Mark: where does the Bible say that every animal species on Earth was
on the Ark?

Every *land* animal species.  Genesis 7:23.

Are you saying that this verse is talking about the whole Earth?

If so, could you show it to me - I don't see any words or phrases
referring to the whole Earth. But if it is referring to the Earth does
that mean the whole Earth or the then known Earth?

Yes, the whole earth.  Gen. 7:19: "... all the tall mountains that were
under the whole heavens came to be covered."  Or do you believe that
there were parts of the earth that were not under the whole heavens?

Mark: we were not talking about the extent of the Flood; rather we
were talking about if you interpret the Bible to be making a claim
that all of the animal species on Earth were on the Ark?

For myself, I am talking about what the Bible says in the Deluge story.
(If you wish, I can also bring in the flood story according to the Dead
Sea Scrolls, Apocrypha, Gnostic texts, and pre-Hebrew mythology.)

If so, could you show me the verses that say all animal species on
Earth were represented on the Ark?

I did that already. Go read Genesis 7.

For the record: I accept a worldwide Flood, but my view is undecided
if this flood was above the mountain tops worldwide.

I remind you: Gen. 7:19: "... all the tall mountains that were under the
whole heavens came to be covered." My personal view is that there was no
extraordinary flood at all, but the biblical account says there was and
that it was above all the mountain tops worldwide.

My claim is that the Bible says that every land
animal alive today descended from those which were on the Ark.  

Okay, but the Bible doesn't say this. It does not say every land animal
today descended (= an evolutionary term?) from a species on the Ark.

True. However, it does say that every land animal died during the flood
except for those on the Ark, and it says that the reason for their being
on the ark was to preserve them. That reason would make no sense if
preserving them was unnecessary.

The Bible advocates special creation to explain the existence of
species.

No, it does not. Special creation of all life is an interpretation
added to scripture. The Bible says that the earth brought forth life
forms (except humans, for which the term "special creation" *does*
apply).

Furthermore, the end of the first creation story (Gen. 2:1-3) strongly
implies that the creation was over and done with after six days. Of
course, others though the years have believed that the earth continues to
bring forth life, explaining the apparent spontaneous generation of flies
and such, but that is not special creation. I would not be surprised if
I am forgetting something, but I cannot think of any biblical or
traditional support for special creation after creation week.

This extricates anyone (who accepts the Biblical explanation)
from the burden of explaining the existence of any species: special
creation explains their existence. The Bible advocates species
immutability (please notice that I did not say 'kind' immutability).

Where does the Bible imply species immutability? I have never seen such
a thing suggested, much less stated, in any of the Bibles I have read.

Immutability begins at the species level.

If the Bible advocates species immutability, how do you reconcile it with
the fact that species are not immutable?

For the record: I was a typical Creationist who accepted microevolution
within kind. My view has changed. I am now a special-
Creationist-species-immutabilist. There is no evidence supporting the
claim that species evolve - none. The evidence does not support claims
of microevolution, but special creation. Evolution, as defined in its
entirety by Darwin and lets say - Ernst Mayr, is impossible. Animals
cannot change their form. IF they do then God is INvolved. If God is
INvolved it is Creationism, not Darwinian evolution. The latter says
animals change their form, but God is not INvolved (= impossible,
modern day voodoo practiced by men in suits & ties, and whitecoats).

Thank you for clearly stating your view.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering


.

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