Re: thoughts on Jesus

On Thu, 01 May 2008 09:21:53 +0100, alwaysaskingquestions wrote:

"Mark Isaak" <eciton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.05.01.00.48.05.253134@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:40:23 +0100, alwaysaskingquestions wrote:

Mark Isaak wrote:
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:55:57 +0100, alwaysaskingquestions wrote:
[...]
But we're moving away from the original debate here; I said that
there cannot be conflict between the Church and science on the issue
of the soul because science does not have an agreed explanation for
the things - examples given - that are the broad equivalent of the
Catholic concept of a soul.

On the contrary, science does have an explanation, at least in broad
outline,

In other words, we *think* we know where the answers lie but we
haven't actually found any yet.

By your standards, we haven't actually found out anything about
anything, anywhere, ever.

Now you are simply talking nonsense.

Then I have captured your position.

As for explanations of the examples of love, aesthetics, morals, and
spirituality, we have answers.

OK then, give me the agreed scientific position on spirituality - no
need to write it out, a URL will do.

You will first have to define "spirituality." If you are referring to
religious-associated feelings of a supernatural being (or something like
that), here is a link describing how it arises from stimulating the
temporal lobes:

St-Pierre LS, Persinger MA. Experimental facilitation of the sensed
presence is predicted by the specific patterns of the applied magnetic
fields, not by suggestibility: re-analyses of 19 experiments. _Int J
Neurosci._ 2006 Sep;116(9):1079-96.
ABSTRACT:
If all experiences are generated by brain activity, then experiences of
God and spirits should also be produced by the appropriate cerebral
stimulation. During the last 15 years experiments have shown that the
sensed presence of a "Sentient Being" can be reliably evoked by very
specific temporal patterns of weak (<1 microT) transcerebral magnetic
fields applied across the temporoparietal region of the two hemispheres.
Recently Granqvist et al. (2005) attributed these effects to
suggestibility and exotic beliefs. Re-analyses with additional data for
407 subjects (19 experiments) showed that the magnetic configurations,
not the subjects' exotic beliefs or suggestibility, were responsible for
the experimental facilitation of sensing a presence. On the other hand,
the subjects' histories of sensed presences before exposure to the
experimental setting were moderately correlated with exotic beliefs and
temporal lobe sensitivity. Several recent experiments have shown that the
side attributed to the presence at the time of the experience is
sensitive to the temporal parameters of the fields, the hemisphere to
which they are maximized, and the person's a priori beliefs. The
importance of verifying the specific timing and temporal pattern of the
software-generated fields and following an effective protocol is
emphasized.

For a popular account, see
http://theframeproblem.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/electromagnetic-spirituality-seeing-god-and-becoming-one-with-the-universe-using-the-god-helmet/
(That was from just a quick google. I'm sure you can find more by
searching on the names and terms in that article.)

We have found out quite a lot, enough to make you extremely
uncomfortable.

I don't feel in the least bit uncomfortable about anything we do know,
I'll admit to some discomfort about stuff we don't know.

for such things as love, music appreciation, altruism, and even
feelings of spiritualism when one prays. They are things which
happen in one's brain. With advances in fMRI, we can even see them
happening, and we can affect them with methods such as surgery,
drugs, and magnetic fields.

Yes, we can see *where* they happen but we haven't a clue *how* they
happen except that electo/chemical pulses are somehow involved.

Yes we do "have a clue." We know how those "pulses" work, how they
connect to other pulses, what affects them, what they affect.

OK then, simple example - how does memory get stored?

Action potentials across synapses and new synapse formation.

A search of "memory AND formation" in PubMed turns up 11,801 references,
of which, from the first couple pages, more than half look relevant.
There is no shortage of research on the subject.

And no, we do not know absolutely everything about the brain. As I
noted elsewhere, we do not fully understand what happens in a glass of
nothing but room-temperature water, either.

If you want to make comparisons then I would say that our scientific
knowledge of consciousness equates to us knowing that water flows, at
room temperature, that it goes solid at 0c, turns into vapour at 100c
and that it is essential for every form of life but we haven't a clue
about its molecular structure.

On the contrary, we know a great deal about its molecular structure. The
flow is the bigger puzzle. But there is quite a bit known there, too.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Im Gone
    ... cons of the show without his presence, ... "Spirituality without science has no mind. ...
    (rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated)
  • Re: Darwinism causes people to stop loving each other
    ... 'spirituality' into science you are defeated by objectivity as science ... Darwin giving marriage advice in his work, ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Darwinism causes people to stop loving each other
    ... 'spirituality' into science you are defeated by objectivity as science ... Darwin giving marriage advice in his work, ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Michael Ruse on the sins of Orlando Figes
    ... By Michael Ruse ... Science and Spirituality came out about six weeks ago and has ... He has also been writing reviews praising his own books. ...
    (uk.philosophy.humanism)
  • Re: OT: Life and Death
    ... non-rational/spiritual/religious beliefs. ... That is commonly called a "prejudice". ... Mox does not appear to be a science buff. ... "Spirituality without science has no mind. ...
    (rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated)