POTM: Yes, the Nazis, were bible-believing Christians.

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:20:45 -0700 (PDT), hersheyh wrote:
On Apr 16, 7:38 pm, Glenn <GlennShel...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
On Apr 16, 10:17 am, Ray Martinez <pyramid...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

This just appeard for me else I would have nominated it earlier. The
last paragraph alone I feel is worthy of a POTM but I will nominate the
whole post of Howards, whilst shaking my head that this sort of
clarification is still required.

{...]

Educated persons know that the Nazis defined "God" to mean Darwinian
laws of nature and were not implicating belief in a real supernatural
Being.

Well you certainly have support in that. Here's just one source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_Religion

"When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean,
like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like
being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by
natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe,
we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force
can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every
smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or
other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or
else upon shameless professional self-interest"

Hitler's Church is pretty damning evidence of that being an ideology
of the Nazis, as well, and I agree to your use of "Darwinian". God is
taken out of the picture, and man is left to believe he is just
another animal, with evolved traits that arose as a result of
"natural" selection, and that existing traits will continue to be
further molded by this same natural force and those existing traits,
in a continuing earthly "struggle for existence".

You mean the source that *also* says:

"Nazism claimed to adhere to Positive Christianity which attempted to
replace traditional Christian beliefs with those agreeable with
Nazism, which many German Christians accepted.[1] Even in the later
years of the Third Reich, many Protestant and Catholic clergy within
Germany persisted in believing that Nazism was in its essence in
accordance with Christian precepts.[1]"

After a discussion of how *some* Protestant denominations
(particularly the Jehovah Witnesses and Confessional Churches) were
anti-Nazi, it was observed that

"Yet Lutherans voted for Hitler more than Catholics."

"Methodist Bishop John L. Nelsen toured the U.S. on Hitler's behalf to
protect his church, but in private letters indicated that he feared or
hated Nazism, and so retired to Switzerland. Methodist Bishop F. H.
Otto Melle took a far more collaborationist position that included
apparently sincere support for Nazism. He felt that serving the Reich
was both a patriotic duty and a means of advancement. To show his
gratitude, Hitler made a gift of 10,000 marks in 1939 to a Methodist
congregation to purchase an organ.[8]"

"The leader of pro-Nazi segment of Baptists was Paul Schmidt. Hitler
also led to the unification of Pro-Nazi Protestants in the Protestant
Reich Church which was led by Ludwig Müller. The idea of such a
"national church" was possible in the history of mainstream German
Protestantism, but National Churches devoted primarily to the state
were generally forbidden among the Anabaptists, Jehovah's Witnesses,
and in Catholicism."

"Before Hitler rose to power, many Catholic priests and leaders
vociferously opposed Nazism on the grounds of its incompatibility with
Christian morals. Nazi Party membership was forbidden until the
takeover and a policy reversal. At his trial Franz von Papen said that
until 1936 the Catholic Church hoped for a Christian alignment to the
beneficial aspects he said they saw in national socialism. (This
statement came after Pope Pius XII ended Von Papen's appointment as
Papal chamberlain and ambassador to the Holy See, but before his
restoration under Pope John XXIII.) With the Church's strong view
against Communism and its cooperation with Mussolini's fascist regime
in Italy, some in the Church looked at the Nazi party as an ally at
first."

The Nazis, above all, were statists. They opposed the churches only
to the extent that the churches did not cooperate with and bend to the
will of the Nazis. *Eventually*, if they had won, I have no doubt
that they would have forced the German church to bend even more fully
to the will of the party and would have ruthlessly killed and
controlled those Christians who would not do so.

I also have no doubt that they would have eventually killed and
controlled science that disagreed with their racist ideology. And
that *includes* modern evolutionary theory and modern genetics because
those theories have learned that all humans have a common origin, are
essentially identical, and that there is more difference within what
are called races than between them.

There were Christians who opposed Hitler *and* Christians who went
along with Hitler willingly. There were scientists who opposed Hitler
*and* those that went along with them willingly. I fundamentally do
not find proclaimed Christians, be they laity or clergy, to be more
(or less) moral than other humans. I am more than happy to point out
examples (both good and bad, sometimes in the same person). Nor do I
find scientists to be more (or less) moral than other humans. I am
more than happy to point out examples (both good and bad, sometimes in
the same person). I do find those who claim otherwise, who think that
*all* Christians are and have to be good and *all* atheists/humanists
or scientists to be evil to be generally deluded, pompous, self-
serving, and arrogant without having any reason for being so.

.

Relevant Pages

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