Re: How did a monkey give birth to a human ?

Friar Broccoli wrote:
On Apr 5, 7:37 pm, John Harshman <jharshman.diespam...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Friar Broccoli wrote:
[snipping most everything]
This in my view is the core issue:
My point is simply that "heritable characteristics" gets rid
of one class of unwanted neutral characteristics, namely
those that are expressed in the genotype without any
consequences at all for phenotype.
No it doesn't, unless you think that genotypic characters with
no phenotypic consequences are not heritable. I assure you
that they are.
OK, I just went back and reread the initial definitions:
We are discussing what is the best concise definition
of Natural Selection as between:
a) differential reproduction resulting from differences in
genotype.
and
b) differential reproduction resulting from differences
heritable characteristics.
I failed to notice that your prefered definition (a) IMPLICITY
includes heritable (phenotypic) *characteristics* because it is
impossible for reproduction to be differential unless genotype
is expressed in phenotype.
Thus my preference for (b) reduces to the clarity question alone
on two grounds:
1) As already expressed "heritable characteristics" is more
accessible.
2) The EXPLICIT reference to the need for the selected
properties to be expressed as phenotypic/characteristics.
In short, for a reader who doesn't already know (a) allows
for the possibility that differential reproduction could
result from a genotypic difference that has no phenotypic
consequences while (b) directly references the
phenotypic/characteristics which evolution works directly
upon.
In other words your definition is just fine for an advanced
level text, but stinks in this enviroment, where almost everyone
(including me) have confused notions.
This argument is symptomatic, I'm afraid. "Heritable characteristics"
says nothing about phenotype. A genotypic difference that has no
phenotypic consequences is still a heritable characteristic.

I can see that point so I would have to add a parenthetic
explanation that "characteristic" here is limited to those that
are "phenotypic". I think I would want to stay away from
anything like "heritable phenotypes"; is there some way
of saying that?

There's a cumbersome way: "genetically-based phenotypic characters". But why?

Remember the context: you were recommending (a) as the
definition Woland should be providing to BackSpace.
If backspace is the audience, any definition is futile, since he is
incapable of reading, understanding, or learning.

True, but there are many intermediate stages.

Whatever you may be thinking of (and I have no idea), he's probably incapable of that too.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: How did a monkey give birth to a human ?
    ... those that are expressed in the genotype without any ... consequences at all for phenotype. ... differential reproduction resulting from differences ... As already expressed "heritable characteristics" is more ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: How did a monkey give birth to a human ?
    ... those that are expressed in the genotype without any ... consequences at all for phenotype. ... differential reproduction resulting from differences ... As already expressed "heritable characteristics" is more ...
    (talk.origins)
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  • Re: How did a monkey give birth to a human ?
    ... those that are expressed in the genotype without any ... consequences at all for phenotype. ... result from a genotypic difference that has no phenotypic ... "Heritable characteristics" ...
    (talk.origins)