Re: Blog: The Scars of Evolution.

Treus wrote:
raven1 wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:18:09 -0700 (PDT), Treus <treusdrie@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
raven1 wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:14:00 -0700 (PDT), Treus <treusdrie@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Ye Old One wrote:

Human beings, like all other species on this planet, have a history.
We came into existence through a process of slow, grinding
trial-and-error, occurring over geological time via the sieve of
differential survival. And like all species, our bodies and our genes
reflect and bear witness to that history. Far from being perfect,
one-time creations, we still bear the scars of the evolutionary
process that made us.

Please describe the methodology according to which a given feature is
determined to derive from an earlier form through this "evolution"
process you're suggesting rather than, say, having been created ex
nihilo. You can make that observational distinction, right?

You didn't actually read the article, did you?

Where, exactly? I looked for a methodology behind the causal
inferences. Can you show me?

"The fused chromosome 2. It's long been known that human beings have
23 pairs of chromosomes, while the other great apes such as gorillas
and chimpanzees have 24. It is all but impossible that the lineage
that led to humans could have completely lost all this genetic
material and still produced a viable organism. Where, then, did the
extra chromosomes go?

Chromosomes are tipped with distinctive segments of DNA called
telomeres and have another special segment called a centromere in the
middle. Lo and behold, human chromosome 2 has a telomere on one end,
then an inactivated centromere, then a segment of telomeres in the
middle, then another centromere, then a final telomere - the structure
we would expect to find if two chromosomes had fused into one. When we
compare this chromosome to the two appropriate ape chromosomes, we
find a compelling match, indicating that this chromosomal fusion
occurred at some point after the human lineage split from our ape
relatives."

Which is the simpler and more reasonable explanation: that this
chromosomal fusion occured naturally, through evolution, or that a
Creator set it up ex nihilo, and happened to do it in such a way that
it would look exactly like what we would expect if it had evolved? Is
the Creator deliberately trying to deceive us?

"The vitamin C pseudogene. Unlike most mammals, human beings can't
synthesize their own vitamin C; we must ingest it as part of our diet,
or else we get the disease of scurvy. Under the hypothesis of special
creation, humans were created this way from the beginning, so we
wouldn't expect evidence that we once had this ability but have since
lost it. However, according to evolution, we are descended from other
mammals, and since most mammals can make their own vitamin C, we'd
expect that human ancestors did have this ability at some point as
well. If this is so, our genes may preserve evidence of it.

Sure enough, human beings have a version of the vitamin C synthesis
gene, but ours is "broken", disabled by mutations. Our primate
relatives, who also lack this ability, also have broken versions of
the gene. Just as evolutionary theory would predict, the same
disabling mutations that exist in the human gene can be found in the
genes of chimpanzees, orangutans, and macaques - compelling evidence
that we are all descended from a primate common ancestor who incurred
this mutation at some point in the past. (It's likely that this
mutation wasn't selected against because all primate diets are rich in
fruit, providing abundant vitamin C.)"

Which is the simpler and more reasonable explanation: that what we
find corresponds exactly to what evolutionary theory would predict, or
that a Creator just happened to arrange things ex nihilo among the
various primates so that the broken gene occurs exactly in that way?
Again, is the Creator deliberately trying to deceive us?

If your argument for descent with modification requires me to
speculate about the mind of God, then I say back to the drawing board
with you.

And again, you have not demonstrated a methodology for establishing
causal relationship. Let me rephrase once more for clarity. What
specific property of a feature of any organism has been shown to be in
a relationship of _causality_ with a feature of another extant or
extinct species? Not a similarity of type or close placement in an
organizational diagram, rather connected through a physical operation
over time.

Naturally, humans have many characters in common with apes. What I do
not see evidence of however is that the substantial overlap of these
two species is anything beyond a system of correlations. To what
property or process can you point that indicates a causal, rather than
merely correlative, relationship between a given feature and an
earlier form?


Will anything short of notarized pedigrees of yourself and Bonzo back to your common ancestor satisfy you?

Every living species we know of is similar to other species in exactly the way we would expect if common descent were true. If common descent were false, there would be no reason for bat wings to have the same arrangement of bones as a human hand, a whale flipper and a horses lower leg. Yet that is what we see.

Common descent explains the differences between insectivorous bats, small insectivorous birds and large insectivorous insects far better than any reasonable assumption of common design. If you disagree, please explain what properties of the designer led him to use existing mammalian, avian and insect features from those lineages rather than designing something that could fly and catch insects?
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