Re: Re: The Sands of Time Do Not Lie...



On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:19:37 -0800 (PST), Ken Denny <ken@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:

On Jan 25, 4:21 pm, Ye Old One <use...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 11:54:37 -0800 (PST), Ken Denny <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:





On Jan 24, 7:18 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:40:22 -0800 (PST), in talk.origins
Ken Denny <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
<dc3fc867-7bbc-4ac1-9bca-db6f6351c...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:

On Jan 23, 8:35 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

More excuses. In the United States, Christians who didn't approve of
slavery kept fighting it until it was abolished. Supposed Christians who
owned slaves revolted against the government and started a long, bloody
war. Why do you make excuses for the immorality of enslaving people?

Not quite historically accurate. The slave owners withdrew from the
United States and the United States government started a long bloody
war to force them to remain.

So the attacks on Federal troops were the US's doing? Sorry.
"Withdrawing" from the Union and attacking the troops who were still
there is an act of war.

The US government was given ample opportunity to withdraw their troops
from confederate soil and refused.

Why would the Union want to remove troops from what was legally its
own soil?

The southern states even offered to
pay but Lincoln refused to negotiate. Fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter

"The South sent delegations to Washington and offered to pay for the
federal properties and enter into a peace treaty with the United
States.

They were part of the United States. There was no legal way they could
"Withdraw" from the Union unless all the states agreed to dissolve the
Union.

Lincoln rejected any negotiations with Confederate agents on
the grounds that the Confederacy was not a legitimate government,

Correct.





and
that making any treaty with it would be tantamount to recognition of
it as a sovereign government. However, Secretary of State William
Seward engaged in unauthorized and indirect negotiations that failed.

"Fort Sumter in Charleston, South Carolina was one of four remaining
Union-held forts in the Confederacy, and Lincoln was determined to
hold Fort Sumter, sending ships on their way to resupply the fort.
Under orders from Confederate President Jefferson Davis, troops
controlled by the Confederate government under General Pierre Gustave
Toutant Beauregard bombarded the fort with artillery on April 12,
forcing the fort's capitulation. Northerners rallied behind Lincoln's
call for all of the states to send troops to recapture the forts and
to preserve the Union."

The war was a direct result of the Union's refusal to allow the
southern states to secede.

No. The war was a direct result of the southern states attempt to
illegally secede.



This is not to be taken as condoning slavery as I too believe to be
totally immoral, but merely to set the record straight about who
started the war.

The slaveholders.

No. The United States.

Wrong again.

--
Bob.

Actually it seems we agree. The war was the result of the North's
refusal to allow the South to secede.

Nonononono!

If the southern states had been
allowed to secede there would have been no war. Our only difference is
that you believe that secession was illegal and I don't.

Sorry, but the only legal way to have done it would have been to have
dissolved the whole Union. As that was something that nobody wished to
see, and as there was no legal way for a state or states to secede,
the southern states acted illegally when they took the actions they
did.

--
Bob.

.



Relevant Pages

  • Re: The Sands of Time Do Not Lie...
    ... war to force them to remain. ... "Withdrawing" from the Union and attacking the troops who were still ... southern states to secede. ... evidence from the adoption of the Constitution that the 10th Amendment ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Re: The Sands of Time Do Not Lie...
    ... war to force them to remain. ... "Withdrawing" from the Union and attacking the troops who were still ... southern states to secede. ... evidence from the adoption of the Constitution that the 10th Amendment ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: The Sands of Time Do Not Lie...
    ... United States and the United States government started a long bloody ... war to force them to remain. ... "Withdrawing" from the Union and attacking the troops who were still ... southern states to secede. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: The Sands of Time Do Not Lie...
    ... United States and the United States government started a long bloody ... war to force them to remain. ... "Fort Sumter in Charleston, South Carolina was one of four remaining ... southern states to secede. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: The Sands of Time Do Not Lie...
    ... United States and the United States government started a long bloody ... war to force them to remain. ... hold Fort Sumter, sending ships on their way to resupply the fort. ... southern states to secede. ...
    (talk.origins)