Re: More from the Pitman parallel universe....

On Jan 2, 1:44 pm, richardalanforr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:09 pm, Seanpit <seanpitnos...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Jan 2, 12:03 pm, richardalanforr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

On Jan 2, 7:38 pm, Seanpit <seanpitnos...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Fossil orientation is actually very widespread - as is evidence of
currents across entire continents (despite Richard's bald claims to
the contrary).

Sean, the Morrison Formation is a deposit laid down by a braided river
system. Within that system there are a wide range of different
depositional environments. Some bone beds show orientation because
they were accumulated by water flowing in rivers. In others the
orientation is random. I provided not only the references, but the
abstracts of papers which describe the evidence for all these
different conditions.

The fossils in the Morrison Formation are *generally* oriented with
respect to flow.

And we are expected to take your word for this? I don't know the
literature on the Morrison Formation particularly well, but as many of
the large collections of vertebrates were made during the 19th century
I doubt that there is much information available on the orientation of
the bones. Marsh and Cope were not much interested in taphonomy.
However, even if current orientation is common in the Morrison
Formation, I fail to understand why such orientation is evidence of
anything other than water flowing in rivers.

Arthur Chadwick has done a fair bit of research in this area.

As far as braided channels, what do you think formed
the Scablands during the massive Bretz' floods?

Not braided river channels.

Yes, braided channels where most certainly formed by Bretz' floods -
look it up. That is one of the reasons why the geologists of his day
originally suggested long periods of time of river channel formation
for the scabland features.

"A map of the Channeled Scablands leaves one with the impression
that the water entered from one or a few points in the northeast and
drained to the southwest, but in such volume that it spread out over
the Columbia Basin much like water poured on a dusty driveway spreads
into several channels which merge and split as the water flows
downhill. These are called braided or "anastomosing" channels."

http://www.spokaneoutdoors.com/scabland.htm

Here is a satellite view clearly illustrating the braided nature of
the Scablands:

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/geology/publications/inf/72-2/images/fig23.jpg

They were formed when a glacial dam broke
and released vast quantities of water.
They weren't formed by a global
flood.

They were formed by a massive flood in a braided manner. Likewise,
any other massive flood acting even over vast continent-wide areas may
produce similar features. These features are not therefore conclusive
evidence of slow formation.

You complain when I don't provide "quotations", but now that I've
provided "quotations" you simply ignore them!

There is nothing that necessitates long periods of time for the
features in question in what you've quoted.

Only if you ignore all the evidence that they were laid down over long
periods of time. How long do you think it takes a meandering river
system to lay down deposits which are over 30 meters thick, especially
one which contains a series of different depositional environments?

AAPG Bulletin; August 1997; v. 81; no. 8; p. 1267-1291

Sandstone-body and shale-body dimensions in a braided fluvial system;
Salt Wash Sandstone Member (Morrison Formation), Garfield County, Utah
John W. Robinson, and Peter J. McCabe

Snyder Oil Corporation, Denver, CO, United States
U. S. Geological Survey, United States

Excellent three-dimensional exposures of the Upper Jurassic Salt Wash
Sandstone Member of the Morrison Formation in the Henry Mountains area
of southern Utah allow measurement of the thickness and width of
fluvial sandstone and shale bodies from extensive photomosaics. The
Salt Wash Sandstone Member is composed of fluvial channel fill,
abandoned channel fill, and overbank/flood-plain strata that were
deposited on a broad alluvial plain of low-sinuosity, sandy, braided
streams flowing northeast. A hierarchy of sandstone and shale bodies
in the Salt Wash Sandstone Member includes, in ascending order, trough
cross-bedding, fining-upward units/mudstone intraclast conglomerates,
single-story sandstone bodies/basal conglomerate, abandoned channel
fill, multistory sandstone bodies, and overbank/flood-plain
heterolithic strata. Trough cross-beds have an average width:thickness
ratio (W:T) of 8.5:1 in the lower interval of the Salt Wash Sandstone
Member and 10.4:1 in the upper interval. Fining-upward units are
0.5-3.0 m thick and 3-11 m wide. Single-story sandstone bodies in the
upper interval are wider and thicker than their counterparts in the
lower interval, based on average W:T, linear regression analysis, and
cumulative relative frequency graphs. Multistory sandstone bodies are
composed of two to eight stories, range up to 30 m thick and over 1500
m wide (W:T > 50:1), and are also larger in the upper interval.
Heterolithic units between sandstone bodies include abandoned channel
fill (W:T = 33:1) and overbank/flood-plain deposits (W:T = 70:1).
Understanding W:T ratios from the component parts of an ancient,
sandy, braided stream deposit can be applied in several ways to
similar strata in other basins; for example, to (1) determine the
width of a unit when only the thickness is known, (2) create
correlation guidelines and maximum correlation lengths, (3) aid in
interpreting the controls on fluvial architecture, and (4) place
additional constraints on input variables to stratigraphic and fluid-
flow modeling. The usefulness of these types of data demonstrates the
need to develop more data sets from other depositional environments.

This same argument was used against Bretz and his interpretation of
the braided Scabland channels as being compatible with a huge flood or
series of floods. Bretz turned out to be right - of course.

Consider also the huge Jurassic Morrison Formation
(famous for its dinosaur fossils). It covers over 1,000,000 square
kilometers - being spread from Canada to Texas. It has been suggested
that it was distributed by widespread flowing water.

The evidence shows that the formataion was laid down by a braided
river system. There is a wide range of different depositional
environments in the Morrison Formation, as the papers whose abstracts
I've posted describe.

There is an overall general pattern of stream orientation in the
Morrison formation and in paleocurrents continent wide and worldwide.

And we are expected to take your word for this, are we?

The Morrison Formation is a deposit laid down by a braided river
system. Rivers in an area generally flow in the same direction, which
is *downhill*!

There is no problem in explaining this in terms of perfectly normal
geological processes.

Given the overall size of the formation, I'd say that there is a bit
of a problem - especially given the additional continental and
worldwide paleocurrent evidence of Arthur Chadwick.

The fossils found
within it, millions upon millions of them, are generally oriented with
respect to flow - confirmed by GPS mapping (Arthur Chadwick).

How the hell do you confirm orientation by GPS?
GPS is used to pinpoint *location*, not orientation.

Did you even look at the reference I gave you? Fossil orientation,
not just location, mapping can be carried out and has been carried out
by high-resolution GPS mapping.

Turner, L. E., A. V. Chadwick, and L. Spencer. High Resolution GPS
Mapping In A Vertebrate Taphonomic Quarry. Geological Society of
America. Abstracts with Program 32:A499. 2000.

That reference refers to a single quarry, Sean. You can tell by
*reading* the title. How on earth does that demonstrate widespread
patterns of current alignment? And it doesn't demonstrate that GPS
records orientation.

You said that GPS could only be used for location, not orientation
studies. This particular reference shows that you are wrong in that
notion.

As far as the continent and world-wide nature of the paleocurrents,
I've referenced you to the data of Arthur Chadwick concerning the
Morrison Formation in particular and the preliminary work he is doing
with continent and worldwide paleocurrents.

http://geology.swau.edu/paleocurrents_1.html

Video:
http://www.detectingdesign.com/geologiccolumn.html#Paleocurrents

< snip repetitive comments >

Beyond
this, the general preservation of current orientation in organic
materials and inorganic sediments suggests general flow patterns that
affect entire continents and even the entire globe affected by
directional flow.

Sean, the Morrison Formation is found in North America, and though
extensive it is *not* global. Within the Morrison Formation there are
no "general flow patterns", just evidence that some of the bone beds
were laid down by water flowing in the rivers for which there is ample
evidence.

Did you look at the reference I gave you? - - listed below?

This data is also being compiled by Arthur
Chadwick.

http://www.detectingdesign.com/geologiccolumn.html#Paleocurrents

This one? The orientation of paleocurrents does seem to be continent
wide and worldwide.

I suggest that you provide a reference from a scientific paper, not a
video by a creationist. Scientific papers are demonstrably rather more
reliable sources.

Arthur Chadwick is an extensively published scientist.

< snip repetitive >

Sean, I know something about geology. I've studied geology formally
and informally for 40 years. I've spent countless hours in the field
scrabbling around in the rocks, and published scientific papers which
contain descriptions of the geological context of the specimens I am
describing.

And you still haven't finished your Ph.D.? What did you do with your
time during that 40 years?

Qualified as an architect and worked in that profession for 20 years.

Although I have collected fossils for most of my life, I didn't start
studying vertebrate palaeontology seriously until about 10 years ago.

By that logic, I've been studying geology for over 30 years
myself! ; )

RF

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com

.