Re: dog breeds: same species or not

On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 13:39:14 -0500,
michael <yost536@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 18:31:16 +0000, Ernest Major
<{$to$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:

In message
<4d6e5538-8817-4044-95d8-eaac04a8b92b@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Yakov <iler.ml@xxxxxxxxx> writes
As an argument against evoluiton, it was pointed out that
with all massive human activity at breeding animals and plants,
no new species was ever created as a result of domestication and
artificial breeding.

Speciation has been observed in the wild, under domestication and in the
laboratory, so the argument would appear to be falsified by observation.

I want to ask: large dogs like St.Bernads, and smallest dogs like
Chihuahua... can they mate naturally between themselves, can they ?

I think they can't, based on their enormous size difference.

Does this not make them different species -- large dogs vs small
dogs ?
Ability to mate is most important aspect of a telling species apart,
no ?

But, you don't have the right counter-example. The current consensus
among zoologists is that dogs all belong to a single species, Canis
lupus (the grey wolf), but there is a minority view that they originate
from a species, now extinct in the wild, morphologically similar to the
pariah dog.

While the extreme forms of dogs are probably unable to breed with each
other, there is the potential for gene flow through intermediate
species, and therefore they are considered to belong to a single
species. Similar situations occur in nature, for example John Wilkins
favourite example of Spalax ehrenbergii.

The Canis lupus complex is not taxonomically simple, even if you neglect
domestic dogs, dingoes, and New Guinea wild dogs. In America you've got
Canis latrans (coyote) as a clearly distinct, but capable of
interbreeding species, and a couple of borderline cases - Canis rufis
and Canis lycaon; in India you have Canis indica and Canis himalayensis;
and in Africa Canis simienensis.

My question is, can these dogs of extreme size differentials
breed by artificial insemination directly without intermediate
steps ...

I have heard of *ancedotal* evidence of bitches of a large breed actually
laying down to permit copulation by males of much smaller breeds.

I think there is sufficient gene flow in the Canid complex to suggest that
speciation has not occured. I'm in the school that doesn't even recognize
Coyotes as a seperate species. There is clear *natural* gene flow between
coyotes, domesticated dogs and wolves.

--
Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@xxxxxxxxx

fnor

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Dog speciation
    ... I trying to read up on dog speciation, specifically about breeds of dog ... If you mean domestic dogs, ... Miniature Poodles, both breeds can breed with Standard Poodles. ... If we defined species the way I learned it i ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: dog breeds: same species or not
    ... large dogs like St.Bernads, ... Does this not make them different species -- large dogs vs small ... Wolves have a proportionately broader skull and much ... been four separation, or domestication, events with gray wolves. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Class on Reproductive isolation
    ... This is where your theory of evolution breaks down and has no proof. ... Look at the variety of dogs. ... mutation into another already existing species. ... about "dogs turning into cats" is a strawman. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Dog speciation
    ... I trying to read up on dog speciation, specifically about breeds of dog ... If you mean domestic dogs, ... Miniature Poodles, both breeds can breed with Standard Poodles. ... If we defined species the way I learned it i ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: dog breeds: same species or not
    ... Speciation has been observed in the wild, under domestication and in the ... large dogs like St.Bernads, ... Does this not make them different species -- large dogs vs small ... The Canis lupus complex is not taxonomically simple, ...
    (talk.origins)