Re: The Reasonable Minority

On Dec 10, 5:48 pm, John Harshman <jharshman.diespam...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Evopeach wrote:
This week I read two books which I found both enlightening and well
reasoned. The first was "The Language of God" by Francis Collins and
"The Design Revolution" by William Demski.

While Collins accepts evolution and an old earth he is also an
evangelical christian and a consumate scientist educated in physics,
chemistry, biology, and medicine. He has little respect for people
like Dawkins.

Really? Does he actually say that? I can see how he might not like
Dawkins' theology, but how could he not respect Dawkins' scientific work?

What scientific work? Dawkins is a pop science writer , parttime
instructor, and has little published current research.



Demski likewise has significant credentials in math, philosophy,
information theory and yes theology.

So? And what are his significant credentials in information theory, exactly?

He returned to school at the University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC),
where he studied psychology (in which he received a B.A. in 1981) and
statistics (receiving an M.S. in 1983). He was awarded an S.M. in
mathematics in 1985, and a Ph.D., also in mathematics, in 1988, both
from the University of Chicago, after which he held a postdoctoral
fellowship in mathematics from the National Science Foundation from
1988 until 1991, and another in the history and philosophy of science
at Northwestern University from 1992-1993. He was awarded an M.A. in
philosophy in 1993, and a Ph.D. in the same subject in 1996, both from
UIC, and an M.Div from Princeton Theological Seminary, also in 1996

These two men are not in agreement intotality but certainly have
respect, honesty, sincerity and good scholarship on their side, as
well as being fine wrtiters and presenters.

I doubt that. Who respects Dembski? Who claims he is honest, sincere,
and/or scholarly? Does Collins have an expressed opinion on Dembski?

Ph.D. philosophy University of Illinois at Chicago 1996
M.Div. theology Princeton Theological Seminary 1996
M.A. philosophy University of Illinois at Chicago 1993
Ph.D. mathematics University of Chicago 1988
S.M. mathematics University of Chicago 1985
M.S. statistics University of Illinois at Chicago 1983
B.A. psychology University of Illinois at Chicago 1981

http://www.designinference.com/documents/PDF_Current_CV_Dembski.pdf

A review of such credentials and his vitae leaves one with a choice of
disrespecting those in the academic community at major institutions,
publishing house editorial review boards, and peers or agreeing to
cease unthoughtful personal attacks based on no evidence.


Dr. Collins was kind enough to email a very civil and warm response to
me concerning certain questions I have regarding his positions.

What did he say?

I am hardly going to share personal correspondence with you.

As a formal student in the History of Science and associated
discliplines of philosophy, critial thinking and such I am chagrined
that people ignore the history of the last 500 years in which religion
and science were quite well behaved one toward the other in majority,
great thinkers and practioners were integrated in both endeavors and
quite accomplished in both.

Are you really a formal student in the history of science? I would
interpret that to mean that you're enrolled in a degree program
somewhere. Mind saying where?

A Masters in Liberal Studies with an emphasis in The History of
Science at the University of Oklahoma.

The poles apart, cynical, rabid, outliers which dominate public debate
presently are quite the opposite and not in the strict tradition of
open inquiry, critical thinking, rational debate and mutual respect
that history presents.

I wonder whether Collins would consider Dembski as one of the rapid
outliers. Do you have any evidence on that?

No, but as a fellow believer I would certainly doubt Collins would
agree with your characterization od Dembski.

For my part I admit to losing my cool in these sorts of forums and
succumbing to a sort of lowest common denominator rhetoric at times.

I hope to do better.

If B.B.Warfield, Asa Grey, and Francis Collins can find common ground
with their faith and evolution, I should at the least remain open and
well read.

If Remine, Demski, and several others can present well reasoned
arguments for ID I want to consider sincerely those as well.

If.

I expect the closed minded ones in the extreme endpoints of each side
to remain as they are and I can certainly deal with them, hopefully
with respect and understanding...life is rather complex and personal
experiences do shape us all.

I generally find that "extremists" are always defined as people who are
far from your position.

You find wrongly.

Everyone, to himself, is apparently in the
rational middle ground. Is there any reason to pay attention to the
"extremist" label in itself? Or should one perhaps be prepared to argue
for one's position on its own merits?

The word extremist does not appear ..."extreme endpoints" in context
simply means in the outlier areas of opinion, advocacy, generally
driven by egomania, psychosis, dogma and unfortunate life experiences
leading to cynicism and irrational approaches to a subject.

I anticipate a day when public discussion is more civil, science and
theology return to the mainstream of history, positions are not set in
concrete, not so self assured, not closed to the possibility that they
may not have all the truth and that some truth is in the other camp.

All very nice, but some positions are indeed true. How will we tell
which they are?

Generally by openminded inquiry, thoughtful reasoning, investigation
of various evidences and almost never by unthinking personal attacks,
unwarrented assertions, childish sophistry and absolute certainty of
ones own position as being the real truth.

How do we recognize the reasonable minority? Oddly, I
would count myself in that group, and Dawkins too. What argument do you
have that I'm wrong?

I have no idea what your positions are only what you assert about
others.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The Reasonable Minority
    ... I will agree that his direct contributions to science ended about 20 ... He returned to school at the University of Illinois at Chicago, ... Does Collins have an expressed opinion on Dembski? ... Generally by openminded inquiry, thoughtful reasoning, investigation ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: The Reasonable Minority
    ... While Collins accepts evolution and an old earth he is also an ... Dawkins is a pop science writer, ... He returned to school at the University of Illinois at Chicago, ... Does Collins have an expressed opinion on Dembski? ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: The Reasonable Minority
    ... He returned to school at the University of Illinois at Chicago, ... mathematics in 1985, and a Ph.D., also in mathematics, in 1988, both ... Does Collins have an expressed opinion on Dembski? ... that people ignore the history of the last 500 years in which religion ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: The Reasonable Minority
    ... The first was "The Language of God" by Francis Collins and ... > chemistry, biology, and medicine. ... > that people ignore the history of the last 500 years in which religion ... > and science were quite well behaved one toward the other in majority, ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: The Reasonable Minority
    ... While Collins accepts evolution and an old earth he is also an ... Dawkins is a pop science writer, ... He returned to school at the University of Illinois at Chicago, ... Does Collins have an expressed opinion on Dembski? ...
    (talk.origins)