Re: dog breeds: same species or not

Cj <Cj@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Yakov" <iler.ml@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4d6e5538-8817-4044-95d8-eaac04a8b92b@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
As an argument against evoluiton, it was pointed out that
with all massive human activity at breeding animals and plants,
no new species was ever created as a result of domestication and
artificial breeding.

I want to ask: large dogs like St.Bernads, and smallest dogs like
Chihuahua... can they mate naturally between themselves, can they ?

I think they can't, based on their enormous size difference.

Does this not make them different species -- large dogs vs small
dogs ?
Ability to mate is most important aspect of a telling species apart,
no ?

Thanks
Y.L.



In my opinion wolves and dogs are virtually separate species for a variety
of reasons. Although it can be argued that they are interfertile the
reproductive separation of wolves and dogs is increasingly apparent because
of evolved behavioral characteristics as well as morphological differences.
In wolf-like dogs the two species can be readily distinguished by skull and
dental morphology. Wolves have a proportionately broader skull and much
larger teeth although the dental count is the same.

It appears, from genetic studies, that in the past 15,000 years there have
been four separation, or domestication, events with gray wolves.
There are no data suggesting that dogs were derived from southern Asian or
Indian wolf species. The most common interaction between coyotes, dogs and
wolves has been lethal for the former two although at least one variety of
wolf (the red wolf) appears to have been derived from a distant wolf/coyote
cross. The behavioral differences are as profound as the anatomical ones
and dogs retain some ability to recognize and respond to wolf body language
signals. The social organization of the two species is quite different.
There is a contingent of dog breeders and trainers in North America who
believe that the social organization of dogs is the same as wolves but this
is belied by socialization differences between the two species. In general
genetic wolves are extraordinarily difficult to socialize to humans and the
timing of behavioral and anatomic development and maturation is very
different. The variation between different wolf species is less pronounced
than the variation between wolves and dogs.

Because speciation is a fuzzy logic topic when we try to compartmentalize
all kinds of animals and plants there are many more anatomic and behavioral
separations that define valid species than anatomical or genetic
reproductive in compatibility.
Cj

Also, the experiments done in Russia on the socialisation of foxes
showed convergent similarities with dogs, indicating that it might be
possible to repeatedly domesticate wolves and other canids with very
similar results. For example, dingoes were clearly domesticated from the
Asian pariah dog, not wolves, and yet they can interbreed with
wolf-derived domestic dogs without trouble. Hence reticulate breeding
means that the "domestic dog" is in fact a polyphyletic group, and that
the wolf-dog group is a kind of superspecies with coyotes at the
periphery.

Darren Naish of Tetrapod Zoology had an interesting post on this:

<http://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2006/10/controversial-origins-of-domest
ic-dog.html>

in which he argued that wolves were not the ancestral species, but I
doubt that this is the whole story. Wolves and dogs do occasionally
interbreed, but behavioural (mating and social behaviour) makes this
rare, but still there is introgression both ways. I think that, given
the recency of the domestic dog, and perhaps even the pariah dog, that
the various Canis species are a classic case of in statu nascendi -
species in the process of being born. And we see this evidence for
evolution every day...
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Philosophy
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: dog breeds: same species or not
    ... large dogs like St.Bernads, ... Does this not make them different species -- large dogs vs small ... Wolves have a proportionately broader skull and much ... been four separation, or domestication, events with gray wolves. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: evolution of wolves into dogs.
    ... reading about a theory of how wolves evolved into dogs. ... Is the domestication of the wolf evolution at all? ... Domestic dogs are a sub species of wolf. ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Ray Martinez and MRSA
    ... If he is unwilling to defend his positions on species ... God created the wolf and the wolf gave rise to dogs via selection ... So I see you accept that wolves begat dogs though evolutionary ... Were they separate archetypes in the mind of God who ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: When were dogs domesticated?
    ... > And two of the species begin to cooperate with one species as dominant: ... > and dogs is much more effective than men hunting alone. ... > I asked a question here about social habits of wolves... ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: dog breeds: same species or not
    ... large dogs like St.Bernads, ... Does this not make them different species -- large dogs vs small ... In my opinion wolves and dogs are virtually separate species for a variety ... Indian wolf species. ...
    (talk.origins)