Re: In the News: 'Expelled' Exposes Plight of Darwin Doubters

Ernest Major wrote:

In message <EeY3j.27585$lD6.25854@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, John
Harshman <jharshman.diespamdie@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes

richardalanforrest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:


On Nov 30, 5:19 pm, backspace <sawireless2...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:


On Nov 30, 7:06 pm, John Harshman <jharshman.diespam...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:





jspace...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

From the article:

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By Michelle Vu
Christian Post Reporter
Fri, Nov. 30 2007 08:40 AM ET

WASHINGTON - A provocative film to be released next year is uncovering
a conspiracy among educators to "expel" professors who question
Darwinism.

Highly acclaimed professors have lost their jobs, been denied tenure,
and rejected of subsequent teaching positions for raising questions on
Darwin's theory of evolution, said speakers at a promotional event
this week for the film "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed," featuring
Ben Stein.

"Soon after I lost my job at George Mason [University] for questioning
Darwinism, I was working at Northern Virginia Community College," said
biology professor Caroline Crocker, who is featured in "Expelled," on
Tuesday

"I overheard the administrator (at NVCC) saying to my supervisor that
she should get rid of me," Crocker recalled at the event hosted by the
Family Research Council. "I made her life easy and said I found
another job."

But Crocker continued to face persecution in subsequent jobs with
bosses telling her they ran out of money after she worked a year, even
though they had an NIH (National Institute of Health) grant.

"I was offered three or four jobs after many applications. Every one
of them after being offered at the interview the job, within two weeks
I was phoned and told that there is no money for this position," the
biology professor recalled.
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Read it
athttp://www.christianpost.com/article/20071130/30277_'Expelled'_Exp

orhttp://tinyurl.com/yph66u

Here is a perfect occasion to apply the flat earth test. Imagine Crocker
is a geography teacher who doubts that the earth is spherical. How
should her employers react?

What do you want her to believe that a
a) monkey turned into a human


No scientist has ever proposed that, so why should he?

Nonsense. Are we not just as much monkeys as apes? If not, what is your
justification for excluding us from the "monkey" clade?


b) ape turned into a human

As humans are apes, how can an ape turn into a human?

Why would this be disallowed? Surely one kind of ape can turn into
another kind of ape.


c) chimpanzee turned into a human

No scientists has ever proposed that, so why should he?

On this at least you are correct.


d) common ancestor turned into a human

No scientist has ever proposed that, so why should he?

What? But every scientist has proposed this, or at least that some
portion of our common ancestor with any other species has turned into us
(and some portion into the other species, and generally with still other
species involved somewhere in it).

All together now: the common ancestor of apes and humans is an ape, and
humans are therefore apes by cladistic definition; the common ancestor
of apes and monkeys is a monkey, and apes (including humans) are
therefore monkeys by cladistic definition. The common ancestor of humans
and mammals is a mammal, and we are therefore mammals. The common
ancestor of humans and therapsids is a therapsid, and we are therefore
therapsids. And so on.


Remember now Dawkins says everybody is "confused" on this common
ancestor business between fish and
the first land based animal - it wasn't a fish but a common ancestor,
he concludes.

Why not try to learn something about evolutionary theory?

Or do you think that your cause is best served by making a public
display of gross and willful ignorance of the subject?

It's up to you, but I can't see what you think you will achieve by
making creationists look ignorant and stupid.

Still, I don't understand the bulk of your objections. He doesn't
understand what he's saying, but you seem confused too.



I think he interpreted (possibly correctly, based on past experience)
backspace to be claiming that an individual animal transformed from an
ancestral form (or non-ancestral form in the case of chimpanzee) to a
human.

If that were so, then why not address that particular point, as I and
others did? And wouldn't that make his response to b incorrect? If we
make your assumption, the response should be the same to all the
choices: "an animal" does not transform.

Now of course there were a great many misconceptions embedded in
backspace's post. One should try to deal with as many of them as
possible. And it's equally true that not even he has any clear idea of
what he means when he posts, other than "evolution is wrong, ha ha".

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: In the News: Expelled Exposes Plight of Darwin Doubters
    ... justification for excluding us from the "monkey" clade? ... As humans are apes, how can an ape turn into a human? ... portion of our common ancestor with any other species has turned into us ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: In the News: Expelled Exposes Plight of Darwin Doubters
    ... justification for excluding us from the "monkey" clade? ... As humans are apes, how can an ape turn into a human? ... portion of our common ancestor with any other species has turned into us ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: In the News: Expelled Exposes Plight of Darwin Doubters
    ... If we are monkeys, ... We are apes, so we can't turn into apes. ... portion of our common ancestor with any other species has turned into us ... human relatives evolved into humans. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: In the News: Expelled Exposes Plight of Darwin Doubters
    ... its tail and showed its balls for the monkey babes. ... much of the confusion surrounding this nonsense term "common ancestor" ... Humans have monkeys for ancestors. ... years ago the great apes and humans had a common ancestor. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: We are apes.
    ... "apes morphed into men." ... fallacy (though not for the reason most creationists would suppose). ... The reason it is a fallacy is that humans are, and always have been, ... Western Gorilla, Gorilla gorilla ...
    (talk.origins)