Re: Minimum Cell?

On 25 Nov, 21:41, hersheyh <hershe...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Nov 25, 3:20 pm, spintronic <spintro...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:





On 25 Nov, 05:10, hersheyh <hershe...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 21, 1:14 pm,spintronic<spintro...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
so I will leave it upto you to demonstrate the "simplicity"
of such systems.

What systems? Mitochondria

No!

or the simpler systems that extract energy
from proton gradients?

Yes!

And why are you leaving it up to me to
demonstrate it.

Because you are the one who spouted bull shit, and tried to pawn it
off as science!

All I said is that there are simpler systems *than mitochondria* that
can capture energy from a proton gradient.

No, I said such systems are more complicated than you made out. After
all you are the one who beleives such a preexisting system has been
captured whole by some sort of lipid.

Why do you think such a statement is "bullshit"?

Obviously there are simpler systems than atp synthase, I just want you
to show me one that can be captured whole.

Are you, in fact, claiming that there are no
current systems simpler than modern mitochondria that can capture (and
convert) the energy of a proton gradient? Curious minds want to know.

No, I never said that.

Since you already know it (or claim to) wouldn't it
be better for you to wow us with your erudition?

No!

I am pretty sure, any system you care to name that takes "energy" from
a proton gradient, is not as simple, as to allow it to be captured
(whole) by the first living cell!

Why would the initial system (or even present systems) have to capture
the energy "whole", whatever that means?

I never said capture the "energy" whole.

We are talking about the amount of "genes" required for a minimal
cell. Since the geneome for such a first "living" cell would require
"energy" and you beleive this "energy" could be "easily harvested"
from the proton gradient. Any genes that build the "energy harvesting
machinery" (akin to atp synthase) obviously would have to evolve
beforehand and then be "captured whole" into your lipid.

If not, then the machinery would have to evolve once inside your cell,
but having no energy would not be able to function, as the inner cell
would find thermodynamic equilibrium and grind to a halt. Do you see
your paradox?




The 2nd law would, in fact,
forbid *any* system from capturing all the energy present in a proton
gradient. What fraction of the total energy available would be
"sufficient"?

Enough to supply your molecular machines with energy to reproduce.

And what molecules do you consider valid for storing
the 'captured' energy, if you think the capture results in stored
chemical energy?

Well obviously your cells contain either DNA or RNA or both, as a
"genetic takeover" is HIGHLY unlikely inside your cell.

Or would conversion of the energy of proton gradients into mechanical energy be an example of a simpler system

Of course it would, but you seem unwilling to describe how this could
happen, in a simplified enviroment.

Curious minds want to know.

I'll bet they do. All humans are amazed by magicians tricks, and you
have a belter here!

.

Relevant Pages

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