Re: Race and IQ

On Nov 15, 8:52 am, Vend <ven...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 15 Nov, 16:18, Kermit <unrestrained_h...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



On Nov 14, 11:01 pm, DougC <priga...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

Terry started this:

From what I understand, amost all tests indicate that there is a
difference in intelligence, the standard reply is that the tests are
flawed.

Having read 9 messages so far in this thread, It is clear that
Political Correctness is the 800 pound gorilla. The scientific
method, logic, and the value of facts are bloody victims of that
gorilla. Either say something meaningful or give it up.

Doug Chandler

Sub-Saharan native Africans can be divided into partially isolated
groups that show more intergroup genetic diversity than the difference
shown between Europeans and American aborigines.

Would it be correct to say that there are multiple biological races of
Sub-Saharian Africans while Europeans and American aborigens belong to
the same biological race?

I think that we can divide up the human species into several (clines?)
groups that may have clusters of certain genes because of partial
isolation in interbreeding (e.g. A European is somewhat more likely to
mate with an other European than an African, for several reasons. Of
course, if that Euorpean has a Mongolian great-grandfather...). This
might be interesting for purposes of medical genetics, or studying
past migrations.

But does it make sense to divide us into groups that are genetically
less diverse (e.g Europeans and American aborigines) but not groups
that are more diverse (e.g. Massai and hottentots)?

If we throw all "Blacks" together (would that include Tasmanians (none
of whom are "pure" Tasmanian at this point) and American blacks, who
are not only largely white but have a noticeably different culture,
economic status, political status, diet, etc.

Or are those genetic differences small and poorly clustered?

Yes.


To rephrase the question, what is a biological race?

A fuzzy concept.


So how scientific are
the concept of "races" in these studies? Suppose one of these groups
has - for genetic differences only - an IQ of 110, and another has an
average IQ or 90. How does that affect the results of these tests - do
you suppose it might matter which of these groups were predominantly
kidnapped for slavery 300 years ago?

Perhaps the group with a smaller average IQ were predominantly
enslaved because they were easier to kidnapp and/or more docile as
slaves.

Yes. Or any number of other differences, perhaps the most important of
which was location, but numerous psychological factors and physical
and mental abilities likely had a role.

Or it could be that the slaves had originally an average IQ but the
selection of living under slavery decreased it:
A slave owner wouldn't like a slaves smarter that him, thus such
slaves could have been killed, allocated to more dangerous and harder
jobs, and given poorer living conditions.

Or they were smart enough to hide their smarts.


As I and others have said, it has been demonstrated that the effects
of culture, economics, etc. are greater than the effects of average
inheritable differences in IQ scores.

As far as I know, it seems that IQ scores for adults living in
developed countries are mostly genetically determined.
IQ scores of children or adults living in underdeveloped countries are
mostly environmental determined.

Perhaps. I note that for American blacks and Hispanics, they on the
average are closer to third world conditions than American whites.
Does this affect the IQ scores? I would be interested in how those
calling for tough science have managed to quantify the effects of
diet, poor medical care, poorly funded schools, different values,
racial prejudice from teachers, etc.


So what conclusions can we come
to, if American blacks have a lower IQ than American whites?

Environmental and genetic factors are difficult to tell apart.
I think that we will not come to any conclusion on the issue until we
identify which genes affect IQ/intelligence.

Teasing the many interacting factors apart is difficult. I can
understand how some folks just want to simplify the world to make it
easier to understand. I fear they are simply simplifying important
variables out of sight.


Scientifically speaking, or course. Please link to studies which have
managed to quantify the differences resulting from non-genetic
factors, such as a lower income level (remembering that this is partly
a result of historical factors, partly a result of current culture,
partly economic differences (which may in turn reflect some IQ
differences, which are partly a result of...), and partly racial
prejudice still manifesting). Feel free to be offensive if you like,
just be scientific and stick to the facts.

The problem is that factors like income level and education level can
also be affected by genetical factors, thus if you "correct" for them
in order to estimate the contribution of genetic factors, you might
understimate.

Yes. And what about exposure to lead paint and fumes from highway
cars? Epigenetic switches? Religions?


There is no reason as far as the ToE goes why one group *can't be
slightly smarter than another, on the average. But which government
policie changes would you recommend if group A has an average IQ of
105, and group B has an IQ of 95?

Kermit

We should not shy away from conclusions just because we don't like the
answers. But the factors which can influence these test scores (which
are *not the same thing as a "general intelligence", which is not the
same thing as genetic potential) are too hopelessly muddled to assert
anything along these lines with any reasonable confidence.

Kermit

.

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