Re: Commentary: Thoughts on atheistic evolution and morality

On Nov 4, 8:38 am, wf3h <w...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Sorry for not replying sooner - I never saw this one tone go past my
little mini news server at home. I assume it was one of the times
where I didn't read usenet for a few days in a row so when Thunderbird
told me there were 2000+ unread in talk.origins, do I want to retrieve
only the latest 500 and mark the rest as read, I chose "yes".

How the frell do some of you people keep up with all the traffic on
this newsgroup? :-)

On Nov 3, 6:49 pm,CoryAlbrecht<coryalbre...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
wf3h wrote, On 03/11/07 03:55 PM:
On Nov 3, 12:52 pm,CoryAlbrecht<coryalbre...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
wf3h wrote, On 03/11/07 06:53 AM:

seems to me all morality is atheistic. if xtians are right, muslims
and jews are atheists...they believe in gods that don't exist. and
they base their morality on that. so either it's irrelevant what god
you believe in, or believing in false gods is just as good as
believing in true ones.
Go back to Understanding Your Enemy 101, wf3h. Jews, Christians and
Muslims believe in the same deity.

really? then why does the mosque at the dome of the rock specifically
say that god has no son?

Muslims believe that Jesus was merely a great prophet of God, not that
he was Yahweh's son. That is disagreement of the part an individual
played for the deity in question, not a disagreement over which deity to
worship.

?? what a meaningless statement. xtians say jesus is god. muslism say
he's not. it's like saying xtians worship thor and jesus...

No, it is not like that, and no, it is not a meaningless statement.

Say that we have a group of People A who beleive in God X. For
generations they have their rituals and what n possibot, and then one
say Some Guy comes along and says he is a great prophet of God X and
he has bunch of new rules and rituals from their deity. Half of People
A believe Some Guy and start to follow the new rituals & rules. The
remaining half of People A think that while Some Guy might have a few
good points, he's not really a major prophet and they continue to use
the old rules & rituals. Over the next many generations they separate
and no longer intermarry or go to each other's religious gatherings.

So now we have People A and People A', both of whom say they believe
in God X, but by your reasoning they could not possibly share that
commonality of belief. You would tell both those people that they are
wrong when they say they believe in the same deity.

Below you make the claim to have gone to seminary, yet you don't know
that the Yahweh of the Jews is the same being that Christians believe
to be the father of their Christ? I find that difficult to believe.

Muslims believe that God's word was revealed to Muhammed by same angel
Gabriel who told Zechariah that his wife would give birth to John the
Baptist, the same Gabriel who told Mary that she would give birth to
Jesus in the Gospel of Luke and the same Gabriel who was toold to
explain to Daniel what his visions in Daniel chapter 8 meant.

i'll betcha there aren't a WHOLE lot of xtians and jews who believe
this. in fact, when i was in catholic seminary, i certainly never
heard this taught. perhaps you can bring me up to speed.

Then how about reading the relevant portions in the Torah, the Gospels
and the Koran?

and do jews believe in the trinity? if so, please tell me where to
find the citation that says they do.

No, they don't. However, that does not mean Jews and Christians don't
believe in the same deity. How ignorant are you of the subject if you do
not know that the Bible says that Jesus was a Jew, that he preached to
the Jews and that he said he was the messiah promised to the Jews in
their Torah?

again you dodge the question. what CHRSTIANS believe about jesus has
ZIP to do with what JEWS believe about jesus.

No, I did not dodge the question. And you are exactly right to say
that what Christians believe about Jesus has nothing to do with Jewish
opinions about the man. However, just because they disagree on the
specific role of thsi person does not mean they disagree on who God
is.

so answer the question: if jews and xtians worship the same god, where
does it say jews accept the trinity?

Again, you're missing the point. The Jews don't have to believe in the
trinity for their Yahweh and the Christian God to be the same being.

Christianity is *based* upon the fact that Jesus is the son of Yahweh of
the Old Testament.

ROFLMAO! the 'fact' that jesus is the 'son of yahweh'?

Now you're being evasive. That or willfully dense. But just to cater
to your denseness how about if I restate that as:

"Christianity is based upon the idea that the Jesus in the New
Testament is the son of the Yahweh of the Old Testament."

After all, it would have been rather silly for Jesus to have preached
to the Jews, using Jewish scriptures yet claim to be the son of a
completely different deity, don'tcha think?

OK, again...tell me where in jewish belief this is accepted. go ahead.
cite the reference...you ignored the question the first time...

Indeed, it is rather telling that the early church in

Yes it is telling, but not in the way you want it to be.

Rome excommunicated Marcion of Sinope for teaching that God the father
of Jesus was not the same being as Yahewh of the Jews.

In effect, you're reiterating the minority Marcionite position of 1800
years ago. A position which the Church also rejected 1800 years ago
which shows the falseness behind your claim WRT the Christians and the
Jews.

ever read about the ebionites? they preached that only jews could be
xtians. there were THOUSANDS of different xtian beliefs in the early
xtian centuries. and there are still 30,000 xtian denominations today.

So? That does not invalidate the point I was making. Or are you going
to claim that every single Christian denomination each believe in a
distinct and separate deity from each other's deity? Do you claim that
there are these 30 thousand distinct and separate Yahwehs being
worshiped on Sundays in churches around the globe?

BTW, I'd love to see a cite on this 30 000 different denominations of
Christianity. I know there's no shortage of denominations, but 30K
seems rather on the high side to me.

So, the two later successors specifically claim that they believe in the
same god as their predecessors. You claim that Jews, Christians and
Muslims believe in three separate gods is proved wrong.

your starting point is that the bible says jesus is god. i asked you
to cite an example of jewish beliefs or practice which accept this.

you ignored that.

No,I did not ignore that. You refused to see my answer. I adressd it
in that paragraphe above begining "No, they don't. However, that does
not mean Jews and Christians don't believe in the same deity..."

some proof.

I have all the proof I need - each of the three religions say they
believe in the same deity.

you demean believe in any god by saying they're all the same.

I did bot say that all gods were the same, I said that Jews, Christians
and Muslims all believe in the same god. Try reading for comprehension
next time.

and the difference is?

If you can't see the difference between "All gods are the same" and
"These three religions believe in the same god", then you are being
willfully stupid.

oh. they all accept that jesus is god, in your view

Once again, you refuse to read for comprehension. I never said such a
thing.

In the end, it all comes down to this:

1. Christians believe in Jesus' claim that he was the son of Yahweh,
the god of the Jews
2. Mohammed said that Allah was the same god as the god of the Jews
and the Christians
3. Therefore Jews, Christians and Muslims believe the one and the same
god

If you can't accept that then you're living in some kind of fantasy
world.

.

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