Re: surprising letter from a creationist to me

On Oct 1, 5:17 pm, Richard Clayton <pockZIGetnZIG...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
skyeyes wrote:
On Sep 29, 6:19 pm, "The Bicycling Guitarist"
<Ch...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I had written a source of fundamentalist Baptist literature and asked why
they are in such denial of reality as to cllaim evolution is not scientific
or not real.

David Cloud himself (the founder of the site) wrote back and said "If the
bible is real evolution is a lie" and went on from there. What is surprising
to me is the "If" that started the sentence. That to me shows some hope of
an open mind to truth, in spite of all the falsehoods in his literature and
on his web site.

He next threatened with hellfire anyone who does not accept Jesus. What a
loving way to convert people; NOT!

I wrote back and said that if he what he said was correct then the Bible is
false because evolution is not a lie. He has not yet replied.

I grew up Conservative Baptist, and I'm familiar with the breed you
speak of. Good luck with your efforts, but I hope you're not holding
your breath. Trust me on this: you won't get anywhere with mere
*facts*.

People like Cloud are motivated mainly by fear of death, which their
pastors carefully inculcate into them, if they don't have enough of it
naturally. They want more than anything *not to have to die [cease to
be concious], ever*. They perceive the answer to the problem of death
to be an equation for salvation in the Bible. In order for the
equation to work, every party of the Bible has to be taken as factual
- for if any part is just metaphor or fiction, then can you trust the
equation for salvation, which is accepting Jesus as your Personal
Savior? Their answer to this is "no," and then they work the logic
bass-ackwards: "I know that God offers eternal life [sic] through
Jesus' offering on the cross, therefore, Man must have fallen in the
Garden of Eden, and therefore, evolution is false, because the Bible
has to be true in order for me to have eternal life."

So you can pummel them with all the logic and data and evidence and
factuality you want, but they're not going to change their minds,
because if they do, then they'll have to accept the possibility that
they will some day cease to exist, and they can't handle that.

Of course, this is something of an oversimplification. There are also
elements that appeal to their need to be seen as "special" and in
possession of esoteric knowlege that worldly people don't have, and of
being redeemed when all the rich, educated, smart people that made
them feel like ignorant rubes in this life will be (to their way of
thinking) condemned to hellfire for all eternity. But needing
assurance that they will never go into oblivion is, I'd say, about 85%
of their motivation for the way they think.

As a former fundie and OEC, the *only* tactic that I've had any
success with is a direct confrontation of the fundy's fear of death.
And it takes a while. But if they can wrap their heads around the
fact that someone can live without fearing the condition of being dead
(as opposed to the process of dying, which is an important distinction
to make), and can have a joyful, meaningful life, then there's a ray
of hope.

I do not understand the fear of death, or people who fear death.

I don't either - these days, now that I'm an atheist. But I grew up
christian fundie, and I remember vividly what the fear was like back
then. Realizing I was an atheist was an amazing conversion
experience, because the fear of death evaporated instantly. That
really "rotated head 180 degrees," as we used to say back in the day.

Avoidance of pain I can understand, and surely nobody wants to die too
soon, but... death is simply a part of life. (The last part, as it
happens.)

That's why I mentioned the difference between "fear of the condition
of being dead" and "fear of the process of dying." Theists don't
generally tend to make the distinction, but it's an important one to
hammer home to them.

There's a lot I want to do before I die, but I can't remember
ever being upset at the notion that my end WILL someday come, and though
I can put it off, I can't avoid it forever.

You're lucky - apparently you didn't grow up in an overly-religious
household, like I did. Some who did never get over the terror they're
inculcated with. A lucky few like me manage to claw their way out
using logic and study as our ladder.

We come from nothing and we go back to nothing;* everything between is
a gift.

For want of a better word - "amen!"

Brenda


.

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