Re: Religion Good For Evolution?

Perplexed in Peoria wrote:
"alwaysaskingquestions" <alwaysaskingquestions@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:5kurgsF5hs0sU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Perplexed in Peoria wrote:
"alwaysaskingquestions" <alwaysaskingquestions@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in
message news:5ktukjF5hje3U1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Perplexed in Peoria wrote:
"alwaysaskingquestions" <alwaysaskingquestions@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Perplexed in Peoria wrote:
"alwaysaskingquestions" <alwaysaskingquestions@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
[...]

Ok, then I disagree with the premise. Most people do NOT think that
altruism generally increases fitness and is generally favored by
natural selection.
Can you give examples of that?
Examples of "people who do not think ..."? Just about everyone who
has
worked on the ideas of kin selection and reciprocal altruism and group
selection as partial explanations for the existence of altruism in
nature.
A couple of cites shouldn't be hard to give then.

Or do you want examples of cases in which altruism does not increase
fitness? You yourself cited the observation that there are people who
literally give their lives to various 'altruistic' causes instead of
staying home and raising the kiddies 'as Nature intended'.
There's a significant difference between giving observational examples and
claiming that "Most people do NOT think.."

Hmmm. You want me to back up my claim that most people do not think
that altruism *generally* increases fitness and is favored by NS.
And you want me to do so by providing a few cites. Ok, here goes:

--------
W.D Hamilton
"The Evolution of Altruistic Behavior"
The American Naturalist 97, 354-356 (1963)

generally considered the first statement of the idea of kin selection.

Some quotes:

It is generally accepted that the behaviour characteristic of a species
is just as much the product of evolution as the morphology. Yet the
kinds of behaviour which can be adequately explained by the classical
theory of natural selection are limited. In particular, this theory
cannot account for any case in which an animal behaves in such a way
as to promote the advantages of other members of the species not its
direct descendents at the expense of its own.

Hamilton then goes on to sketch his own suggested improvement to the
classical theory of natural selection, but his improvements cannot
explain all examples of altruism:

... It follows that altruistic behaviour which benefits neighbors
irrespective of relationship (such as the warning cries of birds)
will only arise when (1) the risk or disadvantage involved is very
slight, and (2) the average neighbor is not too distantly related.
------
This from John Maynard Smith, touching on the conditions needed for
evolution of altruistic behavior by reciprocal altruism:
http://www.heretical.com/ess/evolcoop.html

Quote:
The evolution of cooperation among animals, either within or between
species, presents an obvious problem for Darwinists.
-----
As for group selection, you can easily find examples of people saying
that individual-level natural selection cannot account for altruism
and cooperation, but that group selection can. Look, for example,
at the book by D.S. Wilson and Elliot Sobor - "Unto Others". But note
that there is considerable controversy over whether the various
group-selection models actually work.

For one amusing example, look into the group selection experiments in
Triboleum by McCulloch and Wade. By group selection, they tried to
develop a strain of beetles that would instinctively limit their own
population growth. Instead, they apparently succeeded in developing
a strain of beetles which instinctively eat each other's larvae rather
than feasting on the abundant supply of flour. Keeps the population
down, but can you call it altruism?
-----
I'll refrain from asking from cites from you illustrating that most people
DO think ...


Nothing from the last 3 decades?

You're suggesting that religion in the last few thousand years is responsible for man's success? And that religion causes man to:

"[...] behaves in such a way as to promote the advantages of other members of the species not its direct descendents at the expense of its own."

Please note the conditional *at the expense* part of that. I have no doubt that man is capable of sacrificing his own children for the team, but I have every doubt that it has ever been common enough to provide significant selection. I also don't believe religion had anything to do with it nor that religion was even in the picture long enough to matter - even if it *was* significant.

If letting your children die to further the team was common, then the people with that trait would be contra-selected because they have less kids left to multiply.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Religion Good For Evolution?
    ... worked on the ideas of kin selection and reciprocal altruism and group ... "The Evolution of Altruistic Behavior" ... theory of natural selection are limited. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • RE: Fw: Edward O. Wilsons "bombshell" on the reality of group
    ... selection -- and the same seems to hold true for humans. ... inclusive fitness concept has always been organism group centric (group ... revolutionary poly-centric argument for the evolution of "altruism" ... argument is argued to be gene centric. ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Article: Group selection, a theory whose time has come...again
    ... Trait groups composed of altruistic animals can outcompete ... frequency of altruism may rise in the population as a whole. ... The thing is, when most people think of group selection, they ... Monogamy *is* subject to cheaters. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Article: Group selection, a theory whose time has come...again
    ... Trait groups composed of altruistic animals can outcompete ... frequency of altruism may rise in the population as a whole. ... The thing is, when most people think of group selection, they ... Monogamy *is* subject to cheaters. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Hamiltons rule
    ... >> Her theory predicts that selection will have virtually no influence when: ... > slightly higher fitness (unless maybe the environment is different ... cooperation and altruism ... > might happen to secrete substances that are beneficial ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)