Re: Evolution of Bird Feather and Aerofoil

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:25:07 -0000, Arkalen <skizzir@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Sep 14, 9:54 pm, r norman <r_s_norman@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:35:45 -0000, UC



<uraniumcommitteechair...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sep 14, 2:30 pm, Arkalen <skiz...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sep 14, 4:15 pm, j.wilki...@xxxxxxxxx (John Wilkins) wrote:

Augray <aug...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:41:05 -0000, UC <uraniumcommit...@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
That's not my understanding, but I'm not an expert. All reptiles are
cold-blooded, so far as I know. I thought Aves are classed

"Aves" is singular, you silly silly person. I'm surprised that *you*
of all people would make that mistake.

under
Dinosauria.

And Dinosauria is within Reptilia.

I thought 'Reptilia;' was an obsolete classification.

You were wrong. For instance, look at the tree in
http://www.tolweb.org/Amniota/14990

Reptilia is only "obsolete" in the sense that it excludes Aves, and is
therefore paraphyletic. But a cladist will use it to refer to all
archosaurs, dinosaurs, and birds.
....
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Philosophy
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."

Doesn't it also include mammals to a cladist ? (which makes it even
more paraphyletic)

'Reptilia' includes 'mammals'? is that what you're saying?

No, both to UC and Arkalen. See tree of lifehttp://www.tolweb.org/Amniota/14990

The synapsids (which includes modern mammals) broke off the amniote
trunk separately from the group you might want to call reptiles
(which tree of life does) that includes both anapsids (with modern
turtles) and diapsids (which includes all the other modern groups:
crocodilians, snakes+lizards, Sphenodon, and birds.

I recall there was a time when it was thought that the turtles
(anapsids) separated from the trunk before the mammals (synapsids). In
that case, the reptiles would have to include mammals to be
monophyletic. I remember teaching that for a year or two before the
next edition of the text came out with the revised phylogeny.

Yes I mix terminology and use names of modern groups for branching
that occured long ago. I do so deliberately and provocatively.

Oh right. I was going by the preschool "ladder of life" thing which
had mammals going (of course) after reptiles, and I drew the wrong
conclusion as to what descended from what. My bad.
(actually I'd guessed that from the other posts on this thread, but it
was too late by then ^^)
Hey, that shoots down the "reptilian brain" formulation too. Good.
Thanks for the info !

The "reptilian brain", more technically, the "triune brain" of MacLean
and especially as espoused by Carl Sagan in "Dragons of Eden", is
already pretty well shot down. However that doesn't mean that there
are a large number of brain structures found in the brain stem of
humans and mammals in general that have their precursors in the
amniote brain and even earlier. Brains evolve just as does everything
else and our brains retain a great deal of our evolutionary heritage.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Evolution of Bird Feather and Aerofoil
    ... The synapsids (which includes modern mammals) broke off the amniote ... trunk separately from the group you might want to call reptiles ... I recall there was a time when it was thought that the turtles ... Yes I mix terminology and use names of modern groups for branching ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Evolution of Bird Feather and Aerofoil
    ... Doesn't it also include mammals to a cladist? ... Should be mentioned here that turtles may well be diapsids. ... Which if so means that all living reptiles are diapsids. ... Yes I mix terminology and use names of modern groups for branching ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Evolution of Bird Feather and Aerofoil
    ... Doesn't it also include mammals to a cladist? ... trunk separately from the group you might want to call reptiles ... I recall there was a time when it was thought that the turtles ... Yes I mix terminology and use names of modern groups for branching ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Anyone want to discuss paleoanthropology?
    ... and Brain Size in Human ... mammals: arboreals have typically ... large brain from overheating in the hot savanna... ... is dangerous for humans (& the savanna people neglect that some savanna ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Anyone want to discuss paleoanthropology?
    ... and Brain Size in Human ... mammals: arboreals have typically ... The combination of fat & furless is ... fur, SC fat: mammoth, seal... ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)