Re: Chez Watt: asynchronous deglaciations => asynchronous sea level rises

On Sep 4, 9:29 pm, Skitter_the_...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On 3-Sep-2007, "J.LyonLayden" <JosephLay...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I'm not sure what I wrote that gave the impression that I was disputing the
strength of a Neanderthal compared to a modern human. I'm wasn't. It was
the "giants in the Earth..." Most of the sources I am looking at place the
average height of a Neanderthal at about 5.5 ft. for a male. I'll can check
to see what sort of strength estimates there might be, but I won't contest
that a Neanderthal was stronger than the average modern human.

But 5.5 ft is not exactly the height I would define as "giant" compared to
modern humans. What criteria are you using to define "giant"?

I was supposing that since neanderthal was so strong, Idaltu and
heidelberg might have been also. And at 10,600 ybp it's possible that
there were still some descendents of these still around. Idaltu and
heidelberg were both very tall, taller than us on average, though
anthropologists shirk away from saying just HOW tall, for some reason.
It may have something to do with tenure.



I'm sure your not asking me to quote a reference that says that a
person's definition of the word "world" is mandated by how much of the
world he KNOWS about are you?

No, I'm not. See above for my disagreement.



I mean...surely you don't think common Europeans in the first century
AD took America into consideration when talking about "the world" as a
whole?

Agreed. The educated might take into considered undiscovered lands, as some
others might. I am sure there are exceptions, but I won't quibble about
your point.



Some of these "giants" got people to worship them, as
documented in ancient texts. But some people were smart enough not to
to buy that crap, and sought the enlightenment that is available to us
all but which many, like you, make a life's work of ignoring.

What are you talking about?! What enlightenment are you referring to?

That there is one God and an afterlife. it doesn't take the Bible to
come to that conclusion, or even interaction with other humans for
that matter.

You realize that many would disagree with you that a belief in monotheism is
any sort of enlightenment, don't you? The same holds true for belief in an
"afterlife".


Sure. Religion and enlightenment are deeply personal things and
neither require scientific facts or citations.



Again, what "giants" got people to worship them? What non-mythological
sources for this do you have?

Only the mythology. But it seems reasonable to me. Japan's rulers and
Egypt's rulers got people to worship them, and archaic humans were in
a better position than they were to do so. Many had larger brains and
more robust skeletons, and many populations were a good bit taller.



Remember, some populations of cro-magnon averaged 7 feet tall, and the
majority of beginning civilization people stood around 5'6 and were
much less robust.

WTF are you talking about? What human population has ever averaged 7
ft.
tall? Was that a typo on your part?

Nope. The "watusi" average close to 7 feet tall right now, and cro-
magnon as a species averaged one inch taller than us.
Paleolithic man averaged 6'1 as a WHOLE, with individual populations
ranging much higher than that.
INDEED, it really looks as if the only reason cro-magnon averages so
low (6'1) is because of the fact that pocket populations of
controversial "hybrids," as short as neanderthals themselves bring the
average down.

Uh, you do realize that Cro-Magnon R Us, don't you.

Not exactly. They were a "race' of us. Their skeletons were slightly
more robust and they were a few inches taller. Plus they had slightly
larger brains.


I would like a cite for the average height of paleolithic populations.
You're numbers are simply far off base from anything I have ever seen.

You are wrong about the "Watusi" Their supposed 7 ft. height is a
Hollywood-helped myth. The correct average height is about 5' 6-7".

Currently, the Dutch are the tallest people in the world. The average
height for a Dutchman is almost 6' 1". Can you see how far off your numbers
for Paleolithic peoples probably are?

Yes. But seeing as how the Cro-Magnon's had a higher average overall
height than us, and we have isolated populations of people averaging
well over 6 feet, I see no reason why certain populations of cro-
Magnon could not have approached 7 feet. Also, I keep seeing tall
paleolithic corpses and mummies in the news that are, individually at
least, very tall.

Couple this with the fact that I learned in college that agriculture
reduced man's height some four to six inches because of nutrient
difficiency, and a big gap between proto-farmers and dominant nomadic
tribes with surviving archaic genes.

I mean, I assume that most likely, in reality, interactions similar to
the neanderthal/cro-magnon dynamic went on in other places in the
world.

Indonesia was soloensis vs Hss vs flores

Europe was neanderthal vs hss

Are we so soon to rule out that there MAY have been a natufian vs. Hss/
archaic dynamic in mesopotamia?

Here is one article, and I see others from time to time, but it's hard
to find the keywords for stuff I didn't bookmark. I saw a picture the
other day of an Ice Age "mummy" on MSN that was 6 foot 6, but I've
been searching 45 minutes and I can't find it now.

Here's one though:

" In the past few days, another dig at nearby Moguila village in the
district of Yambol yielded several 3,000-year-old skeletons of unusual
height for the time, over 6 feet 6 inches. " -

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20041122/juliaskeleton.html

The following are all bad sources, but if you take the time to attack
each instance they uote seperately, you'll get a few that hold up to
the light.



http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/pics/giants.html

http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/336cromagnon.html

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/Africa/Giants.Africa1.html

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/giants.html



The existence of interbreeding between modern sapiens populations and
Neanderthals is not yet well established to my knowledge. It seems
reasonable to me, but not well documented to have occured except at couple
of sites. What additonal information do you have regarding this? Your
height calculations are just wrong though. Bad data.



Meganthropus robustus was estimated at "2/3 the size of
giganthropithecus" which would be 8 feet. Modern anthropologists skirt
around giving a size for it by saying "well within the range of homo
erectus."

Cite please?

The reason that modern anthropologists give it's height range as "well
within the range of homo erectus" is probably because the extant remains and
data support a height well within the range of Homo Erectus.

Or do you mean Bigfoot?



Wel,, 8 feet is "well within the range of homo erectus" just as it is
for Hss; we have had 8 foot tall humans living even in recent times.
In fact, we've had plenty over 7 feet who have nothing wrong with
their pituitary glands.

And cro-magnon was more robust than us.

Again, Cro-Magnon R Us.

I think you are using, and thinking along the same lines, the terms "range
of variation" and "population average" interchangeable.



Idaltu and heidelberg were even larger than cro-magnon, and it isn't
impossible that isolated populations of archaic homo sapien survived
until the end of the last ice age.

Not impossible. No evidence I know of to support such a proposition though.
Do you?

Thanks for the reply.

Skitter the Cat- Hide quoted text -

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