Re: Testing the Laws of Intelligence

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 18:11:01 +0200 (CEST), Garamond Lethe
<cartographical@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:45:46 -0400, Zoe wrote:

<snip>

I am not claiming my submission to be better or worse than current
science; I'm just putting it on the table as another thought.

Let's come back to that.

What is happening in the solar system is corroborated by observation
of the movement of our planets, whereas black holes and colliding
galaxies are never observed, just calculated as possibilities on
paper.


We have pictures of colliding galaxies. Many, many, many pictures.
Here's my favorite:

http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/galaxy_collection/pr1995002b/

please point out to me where you see the galaxies colliding.

No problem. Actually, why don't I let the experts speak for themselves.

<q>
[Right] - A rare and spectacular head-on collision between two galaxies
appears in this NASA Hubble Space Telescope true-color image of the
Cartwheel Galaxy, located 500 million light-years away in the
constellation Sculptor. The new details of star birth resolved by Hubble
provide an opportunity to study how extremely massive stars are born in
large fragmented gas clouds. The striking ring-like feature is a direct
result of a smaller intruder galaxy ? possibly one of two objects to the
right of the ring ? that careened through the core of the host galaxy.
Like a rock tossed into a lake, the collision sent a ripple of energy into
space, plowing gas and dust in front of it. Expanding at 200,000 miles per
hour, this cosmic tsunami leaves in its wake a firestorm of new star
creation. Hubble resolves bright blue knots that are gigantic clusters of
newborn stars and immense loops and bubbles blown into space by exploding
stars (supernovae) going off like a string of firecrackers. The Cartwheel
Galaxy presumably was a normal spiral galaxy like our Milky Way before the
collision. This spiral structure is beginning to re-emerge, as seen in the
faint arms or spokes between the outer ring and bulls-eye shaped nucleus.
The ring contains at least several billion new stars that would not
normally have been created in such a short time span and is so large
(150,000 light-years across) our entire Milky Way Galaxy would fit inside.
Hubble's new view does not solve the mystery as to which of the two small
galaxies might have been the intruder. The blue galaxy is disrupted and
has new star formation which strongly suggests it is the interloper.
However, the smoother-looking companion has no gas, which is consistent
with the idea that gas was stripped out of it during passage through the
Cartwheel Galaxy. [Top Left] - Hubble's detailed view shows the knot-like
structure of the ring, produced by large clusters of new star formation.
Hubble also resolves the effects of thousands of supernovae on the ring
structure. One flurry of explosions blew a hole in the ring and formed a
giant bubble of hot gas. Secondary star formation on the edge of this
bubble appears as an arc extending beyond the ring. [Bottom Left] - Hubble
resolves remarkable new detail in the galaxy's core. The reddish color of
this region indicates that it contains a tremendous amount of dust and
embedded star formation. Bright pinpoints of light are gigantic young star
clusters. The picture was taken with the Wide Field Planetary Camera-2 on
October 16, 1994. It is a combination of two images, taken in blue and
near-infrared light.
</q>
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/1995/02/image/a/

Does that help?

not really. With all due respect to the expertise of the astronomer,
when it comes to distant objects like galaxies, he holds the same
position as the fireman who stands beside me and looks at smoke rising
100 miles away, and he tells me that he can analyze the smoke
formation and know exactly who started the fire, what started the
fire, what kind of building is on fire, when the fire started, and
where exactly it is located. I would tend to disbelieve such
speculation. How much less credence would I give to ant-like men,
surveying the vast universe and making pronouncements of a similar
kind.



The Hubble Space Telescope has also confirmed the existence of black holes.

http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/entire_collection/pr1999043c/

please point out the observed spot for the black hole. I know black
holes are considered to be invisible, but they are supposedly detected
by the activity around them. So would you please point out why you
think any particular spot in this link sports a black hole? Emissions
of high-speed electrons do not have to be exclusively connected to
black holes, do they?

Yes, that is exclusive to black holes.

really. This link says otherwise:

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2005/2005JA011254.shtml

is the sun now in the category of a black hole? High speed electrons
are emitted in the solar winds of the sun, aren't they?

This text is associated with a composite of three different observations:

<q>
[top left] - This radio image of the galaxy M87, taken with the Very Large
Array (VLA) radio telescope in February 1989, shows giant bubble-like
structures where radio emission is thought to be powered by the jets of
subatomic particles coming from the the galaxy's central black hole. The
false color corresponds to the intensity of the radio energy being emitted
by the jet. M87 is located 50 million light-years away in the
constellation Virgo. [top right] - A visible light image of the giant
elliptical galaxy M87, taken with NASA Hubble Space Telescope's Wide Field
Planetary Camera 2 in February 1998, reveals a brilliant jet of high-speed
electrons emitted from the nucleus (diagonal line across image). The jet
is produced by a 3-billion-solar-mass black hole. [bottom] - A Very Long
Baseline Array (VLBA) radio image of the region close to the black hole,
where an extragalactic jet is formed into a narrow beam by magnetic
fields. The false color corresponds to the intensity of the radio energy
being emitted by the jet. The red region is about 1/10 light-year across.
The image was taken in March 1999. Object Name: M87
</q>

http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/1999/43/image/a/

[Note how the 1989 one says "is thought to be .... [a] black hole" and the
1998/1999 ones say that it is a black hole -- the latter observations were
the confirmation.]

Now, if you want to know exactly why these images are explained by black
holes and only by black holes, I'm afraid we're going to have to get into
some math. I don't mind looking up the citations, but let me know if
you're interested first.

have you reconciled general relativity and quantim mechanics to the
point that your math accounts for the present loggerhead between the
two? Those two fields come face to face with each other in the theory
of the black hole -- incredibly dense mass reduced to an infinitesimal
particle. Math can be made to prove anything, you know, as I've
observed with isochron dating.

I'm curious: when you wrote the above, did you have a nagging feeling
that colliding galaxies might have been observed, but you might not have
heard about it? Were you certain that they hadn't been observed, and if
so, why? Does your faith require that you not believe this?

no, I have no such nagging feeling that colliding galaxies might have
been observed. I have yet to see where the distant galaxies are
conclusively seen to be colliding. One may interpret the orbit of one
galaxy that brings it in line with another as appearing to collide,
maybe, but that is speculation.

Yes, if it was just two galaxies that happened to be in the same
neighborhood, then assuming they had collided would probably be a very
weak hypothesis. It's the shape of the galaxies, the direction of travel,
and their physical characteristics that demonstrate the collision.

for this particular setting, I will wait for the "fireman" to get
closer to the scene before I'll accept his speculations as to the
meaning of the shape of the smoke or the direction of the travel of
the smoke.

The vast distances of space between
us and other galaxies, plus the vast differences in rates of speeds
between earth and other bodies in the universe can cause illusions
that should be taken into consideration before we begin to talk about,
"Look, they are colliding!"

The folks at NASA are pretty careful about that stuff.

Um-hum.

But I'm still curious -- I'm guessing neither astronomy nor astrophysics
is your field of study, yet you're sounding very confident in your claims
of what has and has not been demonstrated. So getting back to:

I am not claiming my submission to be better or worse than current
science; I'm just putting it on the table as another thought.

Well, it is another thought, but it doesn't appear to take into account
lots of work that has already been done.

I have been repeatedly questioning the "lots of work", and so far,
the answers are unsatisfactory when it comes to macroevolution,
geology, and now cosmology.

One Ph.D. on this forum who is in the field of genetics claimed that
he had observed the ancestor of the two-domain protein he was
studying, and that it was a one-domain protein. Upon closer
questioning, he admitted that the one-domain protein no longer
exists....yet he knew it was a one-domain protein. Go figure.

Would you agree that it's more useful to do a bit of checking before
making these kinds of pronouncements?

I have been and still am checking. Do my questions seem like
pronouncements to you? Pardon me, I'll try to keep a better handle on
them.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Daily Report #4386
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