Re: Testing the Laws of Intelligence

On 2007-08-15, Zoe <muze10@xxxxxxx> wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:22:16 -0500, Mark VandeWettering
<wettering@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On 2007-08-14, Zoe <muze10@xxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:32:10 -0700, "R. Baldwin"
<res0k7yx@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Zoe" <muze10@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:qt3vb3tthbebpcaumt0g6f13bkkp13rc7i@xxxxxxxxxx
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:58:13 -0700, "Bob T." <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

[snip]

black holes are a theory proposed by scientists, but the concept
itself is not science since it cannot be tested. I submit that there
is a difference between practical science and theories proposed by
scientists.

[snip]

Zoe, testing a theory does not require manipulation. Black holes can be and
have been tested.

I did not use the word "manipulation." Practical science can include
observation without manipulation. But from that observation, tests can
be performed on a small scale in a laboratory.

Black holes have not been observed, just concluded from an arrangement
of facts on paper. That arrangement of facts may indeed be correct,
but cannot be verified until observation of the real world is added.
Have scientists observed a black hole? Have they been able to
recreate one on a small scale in a laboratory? If not, then it
remains educated speculation, but not hard science.

I suspect that the electron will be brought forward as an example, but
saying that no one has ever seen an electron, doesn't apply here,
because we can see the effects of the electron's presence. What
effects of a black hole have scientists observed out there in the
universe -- not on paper, mind you, but in reality.

We can of course see the effects of a black holes presence. In
particular, we can look for associated X-ray and gamma ray bursts.
We can look for accretion disks and gas jets. We can look for
gravitational lenses. We can plot the course of objects orbiting
unseen massive objects. We can examine the centers of other
galaxies, both in visible and the radio spectrum.

and on what basis do scientists decide that X-ray and gamma ray
bursts, accretion disks and gas jets, gravitational lenses and orbits
must mean black holes and only black holes?

Upon the same basis that they decide that things like electrons exist
of course. By developing theoretical models, generating hypotheses and
testing them. In most respects, electrons are much, much more mysterious
than black holes are.

Especially when they have not yet harmonized general relativity and
quantum mechanics?

Can you tell us what you think the special problems that general
relativity and quantum mechanics present for the existence of
black holes, and why these should make us tentative in our conclusions?

Mark

.

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