Re: What's more important, self-organzation or evolution?


<sheldongb@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:1185666203.851126.287930@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jul 28, 4:21 pm, "Perplexed in Peoria" <jimmene...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
<sheldo...@xxxxxxx> wrote in messagenews:1185661229.854287.98150@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jul 28, 1:40 am, j.wilki...@xxxxxxxxx (John Wilkins) wrote:
dkomo <dkomo...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
John Harshman wrote:
dkomo wrote:

This was one of the questions I wanted to get answered when I first
poked my head into this n.g. a number of years ago. I must say, I have
been major big time disappointed. Discussions of evolution have been
endless and endlessly repetitive. The received view in biology has been
recycled over and over again. Discussions of self-organization in
biology have been virtually nil.

Yet, I think there is a way to resolve this question, and the answer
IMHO is that self-organization is *way* more important than evolution in
producing the phenomenon of life, as can be seen by examining one
particular aspect of organisms. What do you think that is?

No idea. Why not stop being coy and tell us all what you mean?

An organism's structure and function is vastly *underdetermined* by its
genome. Its DNA governs how protein and RNA molecules are built, when
and how much. It doesn't direct where those molecules are to go inside
a cell and what they are to do. The cell's self-organizational
processes take care of that. In fact, the existence of DNA itself is a
result of those processes

Development of a multicellular organism from a single cell to complete
adult is an excellent example of self-organization. DNA has a
ralatively minor part to play in that. Another example is how brains
wire themselves up automatically. The trillions of synaptic connections
are not mapped at all in DNA.

All selection can do is pick the most effective self-organized forms,
but it does not have detailed control over the tremendous complexity of
that organization.

The problem arises from thinking of DNA as a recipe for an organism and
its phenotype. It ain't. It's part of the evolving causal process by
which chemicals self-organise themselves into organisms from prior
organisms.

What are you talking about? The DNA *is* a recipe for an organism and
it's phenotype, Darwinian wise. That it "evolves" does not detract
from being true for "an organism". Any consideration of "self-
organization" must consider heritability or waver from Darwinian
concepts; DNA is regarded as what is inherited and determines
phenotype. Sure, the way I brush my hair or develop as a result of
environmental variables will cause individual traits to occur in a
population, but these are not heritable, and therefore not relevant to
evolution. Dkomo provides "brain wiring" to be an example of "self-
organization", yet that is a profoundly trivial assumption not
relevant to "life", even were he right that DNA only plays a minor
part in brain wiring. And "relatively minor part" is an unproven
assumption at that. He suggests that selection chooses from these
"self-organized forms" but that DNA doesn't have "detailed" control
over phenotypic complexity. That's plain hogwash; you grow four limbs,
one pecker and a big schnose whether you were raised in AU or the US.
If you were born with less or more, Darwinism dictates the reason is
because of DNA, and nothing but DNA.

Bravo! And out of the mouth of Glenn Sheldon, yet.

And the most remarkable thing is that our resident philosopher, who takes
Rick Norman and I to task for suggesting that there is emergence in
biology, is here claiming that DNA is "part of the evolving causal process
by which chemicals self-organise themselves into organisms from prior
organisms." And why does he adopt this tortured way of speaking? Because
he sees this as the only alternative to saying "DNA is a recipe"!- Hide quoted text -

I think what John means is that DNA itself isn't the recipe for an
organism, with respect to evolution rather that with respect to an
individual organism, but that the real "recipe" is evolution itself,
the causal process of chemical self-organization.


No, that makes even less sense than the way I interpreted it and you
attacked it. He is denying that it is a recipe for an individual, because
it takes more than just a 'recipe' to produce the result. Which is
literally true, but profoundly irrelevant (and even misleading) in the
context of a discussion of evolution.


.

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  • Re: Whats more important, self-organzation or evolution?
    ... Yet, I think there is a way to resolve this question, and the answer IMHO is that self-organization is *way* more important than evolution in producing the phenomenon of life, as can be seen by examining one particular aspect of organisms. ... Its DNA governs how protein and RNA molecules are built, ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Whats more important, self-organzation or evolution?
    ... Discussions of evolution have been ... IMHO is that self-organization is *way* more important than evolution in ... particular aspect of organisms. ... Its DNA governs how protein and RNA molecules are built, ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Whats more important, self-organzation or evolution?
    ... Discussions of evolution have been ... IMHO is that self-organization is *way* more important than evolution in ... particular aspect of organisms. ... Its DNA governs how protein and RNA molecules are built, ...
    (talk.origins)
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