Re: RNA World


"spintronic" <spintronic@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:1183296552.964135.24910@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jul 1, 2:05 am, "Perplexed in Peoria" <jimmene...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
"spintronic" <spintro...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in messagenews:1183244778.689978.283840@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[snip]

The second law states that entropy "always" increases. in an isolated
"system".

Close enough, though you demonstrate below that you don't
understand 'isolated' or 'system' or 'entropy' any better than
you understand 'proofreading'.

So our increases complecity "organised life" (decreased
entropy) (contrary to the second law) is compensated by the increased
entropy of the solar system as a whole. Mainly processes in the sun as
it cools down. (or so theory states).

Giggle.

The thing with entropy, is its very very subtle. Entropy is also
defined as increase in disorder.

At this point let me ask a question. Which is more ordered, 2 hydrogen
atoms flying about at high speeds, or one deuterium atom with less
energy?

Was this a rhetorical question, or do you really not know the answer?

By the way, THAT was a rhetorical question. Obviously you don't
know enough about thermodynamics to see that to compute the entropy
of either system, we would need to know the volume. And how would
you propose to account for the volume occupied by the neutrinos?

The volume of what? The system? The hydrogen? The deuterium?, The
neutrino?

The volume of the system. Your deuterium atom doesn't really have an
entropy. But a deuterium atom confined as a gas within a certain volume
does. The less volume it has to move around in, the less entropy the
system has.

The volume of the system is 6.26894342 × 10^11m^3.
The volume of each hydrogen atom is 2.21661143 × 10^-10m^3
The volume of the deuterium is 2.21661143 × 10-10m^3
The volume of the neutrino is 0m^3

Since the neutrino, has 0m^3 volume, affects our leaf in "no" way at
all, doesnt transfer thermal energy. Since you need an interaction to
cause disorder, we can safely ignore the neutrino completely.

The problem with the neutrinos is: How do you confine them to a finite
volume? Your question implicitly asks about a fusion reaction changing
two hydrogen atoms to a deuterium atom. That process generates an
(anti-) neutrino. To be honest, I'm not sure how something like this
is treated in thermodynamics. I suppose you could treat it as a kind of
'heat' which gets radiated away. But at what temperature is that radiation?

If you are still intent on conveniently ignoring the quantum
"decrease" in entropy in the sun, could you riddle me this.

Our "system" has 2 hydrogen atoms in it somewhere! (They happen to be
in the sun). With a joint volume of 4.43322287 × 10^-10m^3. They fuse
and now occupy a "lesser" more organised space of 2.21661143 ×
10-10m^3.

Ill ask again (Rhetorically if you like) Has, there been a "decrease"
in entropy in the sun when our leaf "decreases" in entropy?

The sun decreases in entropy as a result of fusion reactions. It radiates
heat energy away into the universe thus increasing the entropy of the
universe. The universe is an isolated system, so its entropy cannot
decrease. But the solar system is only a closed system (approximately).
Heat energy can be radiated away. Entropy can decrease. Since it is hotter
than its surroundings, entropy DOES decrease.

A leaf is an open system. It exchanges both matter and energy with its
surroundings. It is far from equilibrium. An understanding of how to
define and account for entropy in open systems was only achieved in the
20th century in the work of Prigogine (for which he won the Nobel Prize).
Consult his fairly good undergrad thermodynamics textbook for the details,
but avoid his popular works.

And then after you have assimilated one or more thermodynamics textbooks
(I have four on my shelves, plus a half dozen chemistry, biochem, and
physics texts with good treatments of thermo), then come back here and
lecture us on the 2LOT.

But getting back to your question, it isn't the sun which balances the
leaf - entropy-wise. It is the rest of the universe which is soaking
up the entropy generated by processes like fusion and photosynthesis.

Applying this logic,

Which you probably shouldn't ...

to the supposed "metabolism first COMPARTMENT".
The compartment, is an isolated system,

No it is not!

Err, Errrr. since entropy measures the disorder of a "system", (in
this case our compartment.) It is utterly impossible to measure the
entropy of a "leaking" system. Especially one of a "leaking"
compartment in a concentration of differing chemicals.

So your turning to the second law is futile in the first place.

You are the one who turned to the second law. Not me. And it is possible
to measure the entropy of a 'leaking' system, if you can measure the
leakage. Consult the Prigogine textbook for details.

And if the compartment bounds a life-form, it is not
even closed. Living things are open systems, and there is no possible
biological compartment which doesn't allow materials to cross into and
out of the compartment.


Living systems have complex transport proteins to regulate what goes
in and out. Your "compartment" has no such system. Its a completely
random "mess".

Not completely random. Neutral molecules (like acetic acid) can get
through at a low rate, but charged ions (like acetate) will hardly get
through at all. Thus the compartment can maintain a proton gradient,
which can be tapped for energy in various ways.

Transport need not be all that complex. There are some simple antibiotics
(much simpler than proteins) which are quite effective as port-antiport
systems. And I claim that any amphoteric molecule whose hydrophilic
segment is capable of chelating metal ions can act as a transport
mechanism if there is much 'flipping' of lipids from one side of the
membrane to another. Not a particularly good way of doing transport,
but perhaps good enough in the early days when there was no better
transport mechanism to compete with.

the entropy in the
"compartment" increases, as thermal energy finds equilibrium in said
compartment. Equalled by more orderly "energy levels" of the atoms in
the compartment, entropy decreases and remains constant.



And that is your refutation of the notion of 'metabolism first'? If
we make the compartmentization act like the boundary of an isolated
system, the living thing will starve and die and eventually entropy
will increase to an equilibrium. Very clever of you. Sends the
'metabolism first' boys back to the drawing board. NOT!!!


You obviously dont understand teh paradox. If the system is closed, it
finds equilibrium. If it is open, it is destroyed by random "noise"
faster than any molecular "memory" can form.

And you obviously don't understand thermo. A closed system does indeed
approach equilibrium. Though it may do so slowly. And thermo says
nothing about 'noise'. Unless you are talking about thermal noise,
in which case it is something which tends to destroy order in ANY
system - isolated, closed, or open.

But when you look at the possibilities available in an open system
(which imports low entropy foodstuffs and exports high entropy wastes)
it becomes possible to continually amplify the signal and thus drown
out the noise.

Probably the same possibility exists in an autotrophic closed system
with complex surroundings at two different temperatures. It receives
high energy photons at one temperature and exports lower energy photons
at a lower temperature. Maybe you could maintain organization that
way, even without importing and exporting material. I suppose that
some ideal Gaia could accomplish that in a closed system. You need
two temperatures in the surroundings, though.

.

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