Re: Intelligent Design & Vestigial Organs

On Jun 19, 4:54 pm, Friar Broccoli <Elia...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 18, 11:57 am, Dr Umesh Bilagi <umeshbil...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 11, 4:08 am, Friar Broccoli <Elia...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello Dr Bilagi;
My apologies for taking so long to get back to you. I had a
number of problems in real life to attend to. Many days may
pass until I respond to you, but you can be certain that I will
continue replying to you until I say that I intend to stop
replying.
On Jun 8, 11:46 am, Dr Umesh Bilagi <umeshbil...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 8, 4:21 pm, Friar Broccoli <Elia...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 7, 10:01 pm, Friar Broccoli <Elia...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 7, 11:39 am, Dr Umesh Bilagi <umeshbil...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 5, 10:11 pm, Friar Broccoli <Elia...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:> A previous copy of this message got my (A) and (B) reversed
[all old discussion snipped to shorten text]
I have only replied at one point below because I believe that
goes to the essence of your misunderstanding. However, I will
reread your post again tonight and may add more then.
PLease read this stpe by step with brackets enclosed
{Specific syndromes of selective factors can create situations in
which
groups are selected because they display group properties which are
selected-for. Some mosquito-transmitted rabbit viruses, for instance,
are only transmitted to uninfected rabbits from infected rabbits
which
are still alive. This creates a selective pressure on every group of
viruses already infecting a rabbit not to become too virulent and
kill }
=============================================
When it is said that it creats selective pressure on every
organsiums. I get dout weather randum mutation is preceded by natural
selection on vise verse becuase Darwin theory takes advantage randum
mutation followed by a filter of natural selection If by randum
mutation if there is possiblity to get virulant strains then what
prevents it inside the body of rabbit. I think selective pressuer
(natural selction filter) is not intellegent as per Darwin theory to
prevent it. then how is it posssble. More than that laboratory
studies say that virulant starin are produised which easily compute
with natural ocurring low virulant strains
===============================================
their host rabbit before enough mosquitoes have bitten it, since
otherwise all the viruses inside the dead rabbit would rot with it.
And indeed in natural systems such viruses display much lower
virulence levels than do mutants of the same viruses that in
laboratory culture readily outcompete non-virulent variants (or than
do tick-transmitted viruses since ticks do bite dead rabbits
============================================
A - WITHIN the body (between cells) virulent viruses are> favoured.
B - BETWEEN organisms (like rabbits) less virulent viruses are
favoured, because they give the virus more chances to
spread to a new host.
As you put it virulant strians are faveraoed in side body but in this
case low virulant starins are propgataed in the body please note this
death of rabbit is at the mercy of virulant strains. just to give
chance to masqutoites they dont become Virulant
This is backward:
It is NOT correct that viruses don't become virulent to give a
chance to the mosquitoes.
It is correct that a virulent virus kills a rabbit sooner.
- a rabbit with a virulent virus lives for a SHORTER time so
gives FEWER mosquitoes a chance
- a rabbit with a nonvirulent virus lives for a LONGER time so
gives MORE mosquitoes a chance
When MORE mosquitoes have the chance to bite an infected rabbit
they can spread the virus to MORE new rabbits.
So nonvirulent viruses spread more (and are thus selected more)
because they let the rabbits live long enough to spread.
No intelligence is needed.
If you do not understand one of the sentences I have written
above, can you tell me which one it is please.
as I understand
mutaion is not at will of any body more so with virasis which do not
brain (Laboratry strains whcich virulant easily compute with natutaral
ones) and regading selective pressuer ( filter of natural selection I
have discussed above)
This how I have understood this topic I am hopeing get your opinon
Plaease reply
Was my explanation understandable to you this time?
You have given valued answer & I am waiting for full answer.
I have reread your original post, and don't believe I have
anything meaningful that I can (or need to) add.
As discussed, virulent strains do sometimes arise in SOME
rabbits, but they cannot spread because virulent viruses kill
their hosts before the virus can spread to a new host.
If there is something you do not understand about this
explanation, could you point to the SPECIFIC phrase that seems
not to make sense please, and explain why it makes no sense.
You have given very valued answer Of coarse I have one dout it
may not be strong objection
i.e.
My Doubt is when virulent strains can easily compute with low
virulent strains even if mosquitoes get less time spread the
disease why it is consistently low virulent strains are
favored
First, between rabbit hosts the virulent strains can NOT
"easily compete" (compute=?compete) because they have less time
to spread to new hosts.
Consider also that (in most cases) if a rabbit has already been
infected by a non-virulent strain, the rabbit will be immune to
the virulent strain. In this way the non-virulent strain helps
to STOP the slower spreading virulent strain.
of coarse this needs quantities studies I don't have
any thing in this connection if any body know better in this
Well if you want a quantitative example consider this simplified
hypothetical situation:
Context:
Virulent virus VvX:
- is contagious for 1 day after which Host Rabbit dies.
Non-virulent virus NvX
- is contagious for 5 days after which Host Rabbit dies or
recovers
- Rabbit population: 1,000,000
- Mosquito population: 1,000,000
- Each rabbit is bitten by one mosquito vector every day.
- Every mosquito will bite one rabbit every day.
- mosquitos carry viruses for only one day.
- When a mosquito bites an infected rabbit, it has a 100%
chance of infecting the rabbit it bites on the following day.
Situation
day 1:
5 rabbits with virulent virus VvX
5 rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX
day2:
5 NEW rabbits with virulent virus VvX (the 5 previous ones are now
dead)
10 rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX
day3:
5 NEW rabbits with virulent virus VvX
20 rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX
day4:
5 NEW rabbits with virulent virus VvX
40 rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX
day5:
5 NEW rabbits with virulent virus VvX
80 rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX
day6:
5 NEW rabbits with virulent virus VvX
155 rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX
day7:
5 NEW rabbits with virulent virus VvX
300 rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX
day8:
5 NEW rabbits with virulent virus VvX
580 rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX
day9:
5 NEW rabbits with virulent virus VvX
1120 rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX
day10:
5 NEW rabbits with virulent virus VvX
2160 rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX
Please suggest me.
Do you notice a pattern in the above example?
What does it suggest to you?
In fact, by day10 the number of VvX infected rabbits might
begin to drop, if one of the mosquitos carrying VvX bit a
rabbit that had already been infected by NvX, and so that
rabbit was already immune to the disease.
If low virulent strains are favored in natural environments it
is like showing intelligent cause in biological system because
both rabbit & viruses have to survive intelligently. Here no
one can point & say this was by chance as this is running
model.
There are many many ways of looking at this question. One
simple way that I like is to just say:
Yes, I think God created the universe knowing that non-virulent
viruses would someday be favoured when diseases spread in
populations.
This is not a problem for evolution.
It simply suggests that God used evolution to create the life
He wanted on earth.
Cordially;
Friar Broccoli
Robert Keith Elias, Quebec, Canada Email: EliasRK (of) gmail * com
Best programmer's & all purpose text editor:http://www.semware.com
--------- I consider ALL arguments in support of my views ----------
This sits on the bet that rabiits do not evolove to combact the virus
when so much other evolution is possible.

If there is any bet at all here, it is one that is very very
favorable to the viruses for 2 obvious reasons:

1- Viruses replicate much much faster than rabbits, so viruses
can evolve methods for evading new immune defenses faster
than rabbits can evolve those defenses.

2- There are probably millions (perhaps billions) of variant
viral strains. If a rabbit becomes immune to one strain
there are millions of other strains ready to take its place.

if one rabitt by mutation combact with visrus wins it should have been
naturaly selected & this possibilty of group selection would not have
happened, takeing the fight betwen virus & rabitt to higher level.

Yes, the race between pathogens and the immune system never
ends, and is constantly moving to a higher and higher level.
This is part of evolution.

Again the I put that Darwin evolution takes adbvange of benfit of dout

Evolution naturally explains what we see in nature. One can
believe in SUDDEN creation of each species/kind by God, only by
throwing doubt (and common sense) completely away.

In the arguments that you have made so far you appear to be
looking for UNnatural behaviour in nature that will show that
God is continuously active in creation. So far no-one has
found such UNnatural behaviour.

Furthermore, couldn't an intelligent God design His creation so
that He would not need to be constantly adjusting it? Evolution
allows God's creation to proceed without such constant extra work.



Cordially;

Friar Broccoli
Robert Keith Elias, Quebec, Canada Email: EliasRK (of) gmail * com
Best programmer's & all purpose text editor:http://www.semware.com

--------- I consider ALL arguments in support of my views ---------

Dear fraind
You have rightly picked my thinking I am of the opinion that
evolution by bare passive death trap of unfits is not possible to
explain everthing I belive.
I am definatly looking into possibolity that something which can not
menifist by simple random mutation or which needs to fixed again &
again againist natural selection, something like that.I belive
Evolution of sex may make some senes as of now to me.

Is sexual reproduction realy advantages over asexual reproduction Do
cost of sexual reprduction out way the benfits.
Is speciaes fixation is better metod of for natural selection if not
we could got lot of much more highly diveserfied organsiums having
better adatable capicity
On this can we suppose that sexual reproduction was fixed explicitly
rather than by radum mutaion and passive death trap of unfits
(natural selection) which tends to diversify.
Give your valuble opinion

Now about fight between rabbit & virus if left unchecked may imbalance
the biosphere, this what I belive I think there is admistretaion in
this connection

Given the EVIDENCE, why is it wrong to acknowledge that God
used evolution as part of his method for creating life on
earth?
I also think so but it needs to proved

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Intelligent Design & Vestigial Organs
    ... Some mosquito-transmitted rabbit viruses, for instance, ... are only transmitted to uninfected rabbits from infected rabbits ... rabbits with virulent virus VvX ... rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Intelligent Design & Vestigial Organs
    ... are only transmitted to uninfected rabbits from infected rabbits ... virulent strains do sometimes arise in SOME ... rabbits with virulent virus VvX ... rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Intelligent Design & Vestigial Organs
    ... are only transmitted to uninfected rabbits from infected rabbits ... virulent strains do sometimes arise in SOME ... rabbits with virulent virus VvX ... rabbits with non-virulent virus NvX ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Intelligent Design & Vestigial Organs
    ... Some mosquito-transmitted rabbit viruses, for instance, ... are only transmitted to uninfected rabbits from infected rabbits which ... this pargrph from wikiencyclopdia meaning of group selection points ... the longer a rabbit is healthy enough to spread ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Intelligent Design & Vestigial Organs
    ... Some mosquito-transmitted rabbit viruses, for instance, ... are only transmitted to uninfected rabbits from infected rabbits which ... this pargrph from wikiencyclopdia meaning of group selection points ... the longer a rabbit is healthy enough to spread ...
    (talk.origins)