Re: Checking scientist's articles

On Jun 1, 6:28 pm, RobinGoodfellow <lmeyer...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 1, 7:51 pm, Glenn <GlennShel...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 1, 3:25 am, RobinGoodfellow <lmeyer...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[snip]

Perhaps, but I'm not sure where you're getting your information from.
Here's what the ISU Department of Physics and Astronomy itself has to
say on the matter:

"The department offers work for the degrees master of science and
*doctor of philosophy* with majors in applied physics, *astrophysics*,
condensed matter physics, high energy physics, nuclear physics, and
physics; and minor credit courses to students majoring in other
departments." (emphasis mine)

http://www.physics.iastate.edu/index.php?cmd=education.graduate

I've already provided the link ( in another thread) where ISU states
something like "An MS is the highest degree awarded for Astronomy
students".

Do you mean this?http://www.registrar.uiowa.edu/registrar/catalog/CollegeofLiberalArts...

"The department offers a Master of Science and Doctor of Philosophy in
physics, and a Master of Science in astronomy. Students who wish to
pursue a program in astronomy beyond the M.S. may qualify for a Ph.D.
in physics with specialization and a dissertation in astronomy or
astrophysics. An M.S. is not prerequisite to a Ph.D."

There is certainly a Ph.D. program at ISU in Gonzalez's area of
interest. *If* he didn't have a single successful Ph.D. student in
his years there, it would be pretty damning.

No, there is a PhD program at ISU in *physics*. That may be an area of
interest to an astronomer, but I doubt that Gonzalez would be allowed
to teach "Phys 571, 591, either 564 or 531":
http://www.iastate.edu/~catalog/2007-2009/courses/phys.html

Now most astronomers have some experience in astrophysics, and their
academic degrees would reflect that. I suppose you could call most any
astronomer an astrophysicist, but I don't think it is fair to assume
that Gonzalez, which was likely assigned only astronomy classes to
teach should be responsible for elevating any students beyond the
level of MS in astronomy.



But it appears he did have
some connection to at least one MS student, who's thesis project was
coauthoring the astronomy textbook with Gonzalez, who he also took
classes from. What do you mean by "didn't appear"?

Exaclty what I wrote: "Gonzalez didn't appear to have many graduate
students". As far as we both can tell, he only worked with one MS
student, who probably did no original research (since his project was
co-authoring a textbook). However, it is entirely possible that
Gonzalez had other graduate students we don't know about, who did do
original research under his tutelage, but haven't published or earned
their Ph.Ds - perhaps because they started working with Gonzales
relatively recently. I think we need more infomation on the subject
before any conclusions can be drawn.

No, I only said "at least". Your conclusion "as far as we both can
tell" in not valid. I was reacting to the Panda's Ass that inferred
that Gonzalez hadn't moved any of his students to PhD's. One example
disproves that claim.

No, it doesn't. I wrote "many", as in more than one. Generally, by
the time a successful professor has been in a decent department for
six years, they have three or more Ph.D. students, some of whom have
published papers and are close to graduating.

Not according to this ISU website:
http://www.physics.iastate.edu/?cmd=gradadmission.recentgrads

If you'll notice the "area" beside the "advisor", "astro" is listed 5
times, in 6 years.

The heading reads "Over the past 5 years, over 50 students have
received a Ph.D. in Physics or Astronomy from Iowa State, and gone on
to find satisfying careers in a variety of fields. Here is a list of
our recent graduates, for a sample of the opportunities out there..."

However, "graduates" doesn't mean only those that earned Phd's, but
also MS's. If you go this site
http://www.physics.iastate.edu/index.php?cmd=people.
you'll see that all the instructors for those 5 students were at least
full professors. None were associate or assistant professors. And
using that site, the student's names can be searched to see how many
got MS's or PhD's. Another way is to look at
http://www.physics.iastate.edu/index.php?cmd=researchgroups.astronomy.graduate-program.students

"Some past grads": Only three got PhD's in 5 years. And as I already
showed, none were guided by assistant or associate professors.

And so what if he has only had one student get an MS?

If it were true, it would mean he failed to demonstrate the ability to
train future generations of researchers - a crucial responsibility for
a professor at a research university.

I don't think that is necessarily fair, in any specific case of
considering tenure. In fact, according to the site above, no students
in that 5 year range had an assistant or associate listed as "major
professor".

This site may be a valuable resource in determining if what you say
has any merit at ISU:
http://www.physics.uiowa.edu/alumni/

Or none to get a PhD? Have any of those that were granted
tenure, and how many?

Don't know how things are at ISU, but if they are like anything my
uni, any professor who's gotten tenured in recent memory had several
Ph.D. students working for him/her at some point, at least a couple of
whom have graduated or were close. And that includes people who make
Gonzalez's publication record look like mine in comparison.

[snip]





Actually, in academia it is expected and widely known. While I'm
stuck in grad school, several of my friends recently graduated and
started as assistant professors. Securing funding for the next few
years is their top priority: one of my friends is putting his research
virtually on hold for a few months in order to write an NSF grant
proposal. Hell, the sheer dread I feel when I think about having to
write one of those things is high on the list of reasons why won't be
going into academia anytime soon.

As for the importance of grants, quite simply you need them to do
research. When you start as an assistant professor, the university
usually only pays your salary: it very seldom subsidizes your research
in any way (except a small startup fund). While this may be all well
and good for professors of humanities, scientists need lab equipment,
computers, travel money for conferences and collaborations, access to
expensive time-share equipment, money to publish their papers, and a
myriad of other costs. Perhaps most importantly, they need graduate
(especially Ph.D.) students and postdocs to work with, and they often
pay the students' tuition and stipend and the postdocs' salaries,
along with all associated research costs (see above). All that money
comes directly from grants: the more grant money you have, the more
you can invest in your research and build up collaborations,
increasing your likelihood of producing influential results. The
spirit of capitalism is alive and well in the sciences: that's why
grants are essential.

Of course, there is also the more cynical aspect to the all this:
every time a scientist gets a grant, the university takes a hefty
portion of the money as administrative costs. So, during tenure
review, universities will tend to favor scientists who could be
expected to bring in the big grants in the future. As I said, the
spirit of capitalism is alive and well. But this too, is common
knowledge among everyone who enters academia. If Gonzalez is pleading
ignorance on the matter, I would find it difficult to believe him.

I'd expect that he would have known what was expected of him. However,
this unspoken law you refer may or not be as prevalent as you claim.
It's only your personal testimony, so I have a hard time placing it in
the right order of importance or relevance.

Fair enough. However, if you don't believe me, feel free to talk to
other people starting out on tenure track in a scientific or technical
field in any competitive research institution. Or read some of their
blogs, articles about starting out in academia, etc. You will find a
picture that is very consistent with what I wrote.

That may be, but it would be a hard way to go, wouldn't you think?

However it may be, what is consistent is the guidelines, the stated
expectations for tenure. This funding variable is a grey area which
occurs to me to place the issue of discrimination at the forefront.

The evidence I have seen,
however, does nothing to indicate this, such as the application, and
the stated requirements for tenure. When a person is hired, what is
expected and required of him should be in black and white, as should
the things that would get him fired, instead of tenured. They are.

Perhaps in a perfect world, but I don't think any job category out
there has such stringent and well defined guide-lines for promotion
that you want to see. Here is an excerpt from the ISU faculty
handbook:

As well defined as possible, in most all contracts.

"C. Qualifications for Academic Rank and Tenure
5.2.3.2. Associate Professor and/or Tenure. An associate professor
should have a solid academic reputation and show promise of further
development and productivity in his /her academic career. The
candidate must demonstrate the following:
· excellence in scholarship that establishes the individual as a
significant contributor to the field or profession, with potential for
national distinction
· effectiveness in areas of position responsibilities
· satisfactory institutional service"

Gonzalez may easily fulfill and even surpass the criteria of the first
bullet point, but it is far from clear whether he fulfills the second
or the third. Between his apparent lack of grant income and apparent
lack of Ph.D. students, threre is a good argument to be made that he
hasn't. We also don't know how he did on his teacher's evalutions -
if his undergrad students gave him consistently low scores, for
example, it would count heavily against him. We don't know if he got
along, professionally or personally, with his fellow department
members. There are a myriad factors that go into decisions about
tenure, and as with all promotion decisions, few of them are purely
objective. It could be that this decision is indeed blatantly unfair,
or entirely reasonable, but for now, there is simply not enough
publically available evidence to decide either way. Perhaps, things
will become clearer after the appeals process is over with. Or maybe
not, and Gonzalez will have to bite the bullet and move on with his
life, as scores of other academics do every year: with his education,
credentials, DI connections, and a popular book in press, I am sure he
is in no danger of dying from malnutrition anytime soon. Either way,
the DI will spin this story on every possible axis, PZ will issue an
incensed proclamation or two (dozen), various bloggers will take
verbal potshots at one another for a few weeks, the general public
will take vague notice and quickly move on to the Next Big Thing, and
life will go on.

Life will go on, yes. I don't think this will disappear though.

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070602/OPINION01/706020313/1035/OPINION

"The denial of tenure of an Iowa State University assistant professor
who has studied the concept of intelligent design and has expressed
his belief in it has stirred controversy about academic freedom and
freedom of speech.
His tenure denial violates neither of those principles. I participated
in the initial vote and voted no, based on this fundamental question:
What is science?"

I think it is being answered.



.

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